How Elite Leaders Build Unstoppable Teams, Ep67

In this powerful episode of the No Limits Leadership Podcast, host Sean Patton sits down with his longtime friend and West Point classmate, Matt Van Epps. Matt currently serves as the Commissioner of General Services for the state of Tennessee, bringing his military-honed leadership skills to the public sector. He is also a former aviation commander in the elite 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment (SOAR), where he led some of the most complex and high-stakes aviation missions in the military.

From their shared experiences at West Point and the post-9/11 military landscape to Matt's innovative work in Tennessee state government, this episode is packed with leadership insights.

Listeners will discover:

• The Power of Team of Teams: How Matt applies General Stanley McChrystal's 'team of teams' approach to build high-performing, cross-functional teams in state government.
• The Role of Communication in Leadership: Why communication failures are at the root of most organizational breakdowns—and how Matt's military background taught him the importance of clear, consistent communication.
• Learning from Failure: Matt shares a personal leadership mistake and the lessons he took away about decision-making and escalation protocols.
• Patriotism and Perspective: A reflection on the unity the country experienced after 9/11 and why gratitude and civics education are critical for the nation's future.
• Leading with Heart: How becoming a father has given Matt a new perspective on patience, presence, and the importance of supporting team members as whole people.

Throughout the conversation, Sean and Matt connect the dots between military and civilian leadership, emphasizing the timeless principles of service, trust, and continuous learning. Whether you're leading a government team, running a business, or guiding a small group, this episode will leave you with actionable takeaways for building stronger, more cohesive teams.

Don't miss this engaging discussion with a leader who's driving real impact in both his state and his community.

🎙️ Listen Now and discover how you can apply these lessons to become a No Limit Leader.

Guest: Matt Van Epps | Commissioner of General Services, State of Tennessee

Host: Sean Patton | Founder of No Limit Leaders and Host of the No Limits Leadership Podcast

Chapters

00:00 Introduction and Background of Matt Van Epps

03:06 Reflections on Army-Navy Rivalry and Patriotism

05:52 Post 9/11 Experience and Its Impact on Leadership

08:50 The Importance of Unity and Teamwork in America

12:05 State Government as a Model for National Unity

15:11 Civic Engagement and the Role of Veterans

18:00 The Pursuit of a More Perfect Union

21:10 Gratitude and Perspective from Military Service

28:02 Finding Peace in Chaos

32:35 Leadership Lessons from Military Experience

39:13 The Importance of Communication in Leadership

50:14 Becoming a Father: A New Perspective on Leadership

Transcript

Sean Patton (00:15)
Welcome to the No Limits Leadership Podcast. am your host, Sean Patton, and I am so excited to have my good friend and West Point classmate, Matt Van Epps on today. And Matt is a superstar and he is not only a West Point classmate, but the commissioner of general services for the state of Tennessee and on the governor's cabinet, just a rock star in the military, outside the military.

And man, I'm just super stoked to have you on today.

Matt Van Epps (00:47)
No, Sean, thanks so much. Super excited to be on No Limits Leadership. It is awesome. We've been friends for a long time and classmates and seeing what you're doing for leadership is amazing and super excited to be here. And just so everybody knows, we did not coordinate this, but it is Army Navy Week and obviously beat Navy. So, yeah.

Sean Patton (01:04)
Yeah. Yeah, we both have our West Point crests on. Shout

out to another West Point grad, Dean Wagner. This is authentically American, his gear. So we're, yeah, we're go Army, beat Navy. Hopefully, this does come out after Army, Navy, we're just as excited about how the game went. So I just remember when we were at West Point,

Matt Van Epps (01:15)
Yeah. Dean does amazing work. Dean does amazing work. Yeah. Yeah.

We've won, no doubt. Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure.

Sean Patton (01:33)
Army Navy the first year, right? We were, we were freshmen and we go to the Army Navy. It's crazy thing. You've heard about it. The biggest game in the country, you know, this like historic thing. And it was gorgeous. You remember that? It was like, it was like 55 and sunny in December and Philly and, we beat Navy and rushed the field. And I was like, Army Navy is the best thing. Yeah. It's in my head.

Matt Van Epps (01:45)
Perfect day. Perfect day.

We will never lose another football game. And then we lost like 10

or 12 in a row.

Sean Patton (02:00)
And then every year

after that, was like negative 20 degrees. And I remember we were going to, we were going to the like vendors like that were inside the stadium and asking for their cardboard boxes to stand on like homeless, like the unhoused, right? We were just like standing there shivering with like our Oxford shoes and dress socks on and just getting destroyed by Navy every time.

Matt Van Epps (02:04)
Yeah.

So cold, so cold, so

cold. through the puddles of slush as we're walking into the football game and like just freezing cold. I do that, that first game we were at, I I have some significant memories. think that was the post 9-11 game and President Bush sat right next to us over, was in the stadium, he was like right over by us. General Schwarzkopf gave MacArthur's speech at halftime from the 50 yard line. Something else, they're just like.

Sean Patton (02:35)
yeah.

Matt Van Epps (02:48)
really struck home. It was just that overarching sense of patriotism and the whole country being together. It just launched the invasion in Afghanistan in October. And so this was raw for everybody. And it was a moment of everybody coming together and celebrating America's game. was perfect weather. We took the long O's off. We didn't have to wear our overcoat because we were like,

Sean Patton (03:17)
Yeah.

Matt Van Epps (03:18)
this is great. This perfect. Perfect temperature. won. We won big. Some breakaway, breakaway rushing touchdowns that were pretty amazing in that game. And it's awesome. It's good to be back to winning again for the Army football team. Leia's incredibly done an amazing job this year. And it just, it's been so fun to watch for sure.

Sean Patton (03:38)
You know, and this is different direction I plan on starting, but since you brought it up, you know, you are generation. went into West Point, pre nine 11, right? We, we started basic training or be like, in June of 20 of 2001. And, you know, I, I still, was going through and cleaning out, my attic recently and team across old photos. And I had.

Matt Van Epps (03:42)
Yeah.

Sean Patton (04:06)
the printed out photos from when my family came to visit West Point and then drop us off. And we went down to New York beforehand. I've got pictures of me, know, Statue of Liberty with, you know, the World Trade Towers behind me. And it just, and then to, and I remember then a West Point win 9-11 happened because those of don't know West Point's 45 miles-ish, whatever, north of New York City. And when the towers fell, you could see

Matt Van Epps (04:10)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Sean Patton (04:34)
Like you could see it in the distance. And like, I just think about our generation specifically at West Point or even, you know, not in the military that came up through those, the 2000s and early 2010s when we, were, we had post 9-11, we, had the two wars going on. had, and those years after 9-11 when I never felt, and I hope I get to again, our country.

Matt Van Epps (04:37)
Yep.

Sean Patton (05:03)
put aside differences and come together in that way.

Matt Van Epps (05:07)
The single greatest, I mean, in our generation, I mean, the single greatest time of just the country being totally together and aligned on what we had to do and what we had to go out and that fight against terrorism that you and I both were a part of and that that unbridled patriotism that came after that was just, I agree, it was just such an amazing, in a really tough and challenging and terrible circumstance, it was an amazing thing to see and be a part of.

And to your point, that first plane used the Hudson River to navigate its way down to the World Trade Center. It flew right over West Point. we went in, our class went in, we were at 1,200, 1,300, the kind of normal class size. And then May of 2005, in our graduation year, Time Magazine did a story on us and put several of our classmates on the cover. And then we find out.

the day over day before graduation that our class graduated with exactly 911 after time magazine called us the class of 9 11. It's like it's just that amazing crazy thing that happened and really shaped our lives. I mean, I know for both of us and the fights that we would went into and and the work that we did in Iraq and Afghanistan and in a very formative part to my life and leadership experiences that I draw on today as I'm serving in state government and

things I talk about regularly with my team as a way to correlate, here's a perspective from the military from our time post 9-11 and what we did and learned as leaders and how that relates now to the public sector and the work that we do serving Tennesseans in state government. it's an experience I'm grateful to have had. And as you know, there's some tough and challenging and formative ones that we probably wish we didn't have, but

Altogether, I'm to shape who we are as leaders and what our mindsets and thought processes and the grit that we have to push through and complete missions and objectives and targets. And so I'm thankful to have had those experiences with you and the rest of our classmates. it really is, really is a, you think back on it in the time that we went in and we have pictures next to the World Trade Center.

in New York City at that time of relative peace. And then just those few short weeks later being there, one of the things I remember most of that day were the first season seniors, they're coming out in their battle, the old battle dress uniform and just saying, hey, we're going to war, we're going to war. And that's what we spent four years doing is getting ready to do that and talking to our classmates who went to become lieutenants and came back and were giving briefings.

And that really shaped our, for so long of our career and so folks still out there doing it. I mean, I think we can't forget about them and your fellow Green Berets, my fellow night stalkers are out there still in the fight and in areas and places that people won't know about, but doing the work that has to be done for the country.

Sean Patton (08:22)
A hundred percent. And now you mentioned how you have been able to share some of those experiences for the military with, you know, your staff and those in the public sector. And we talked about how the country felt during that time. And now at times we, we seem so divided and so far away from that. and so

I guess there's two levels of that. is, so let's start with the national side. like.

what do you think we can do, what needs to be done, what can be done to try to get back at least some sort of unifying vision of what America is, the things that make us uniquely that as opposed to the differences in, which are important. mean, and so I don't want it like,

Matt Van Epps (09:20)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Sean Patton (09:24)
I do think that there's just like any great organization, you have one culture, one unifying vision, and then you can have, and then you have the diversity of opinions and experiences within that make it stronger. And I do believe that's part of America, but what do you think we can do because of those of us who lived through that time to help bring some of that back to our country?

Matt Van Epps (09:42)
Yeah.

Yeah, that's a great question. A couple of initial thoughts. I think from my perspective now, think having served in state government for about six and a half years now, so started off, as you know, the Tennessee Department of Veterans Services was in the Department of Transportation, was on the state's COVID team, was in the governor's office, and now my role in general services. I think what I've seen and you and I having lived in Tennessee for now a number of years is that

Tennessee in a lot of ways gets things right and we're doing some amazing things in the state. We're the lowest debt per capita, fastest growing economy. There's some amazing things where we're able to lead on and I think it's really important for states to take the lead in a lot of ways where we can drive, we are the innovation labs for democracy and.

And it's been a cool experience seeing that and being a part of it in a number of different ways. I think what's important to me and I know to you too is the concept of team and team building and putting the team first. A couple of thoughts there I think from the Department of General Services. I've been in the role for about 75 days now. The book that I gave to my executive leadership team when I started on day one with a handwritten note to all of them.

was General Stanley McChrystal's book, Team of Teams. And it's very much a, it's just a book really about teams, it's about operating. It resonates with me because you and I operated under that model. We did counter-terrorism work under the model that you've got to build effective teams with shared understanding with high performing organizations that have their own unique cultures and backgrounds and...

and need to come together jointly to accomplish what could not otherwise be done with any single unit. In a lot of ways, my department is the same way, five large divisions, real estate, procurement, vehicles, document solutions, and then our administrative services, which is internally facing. But we've got, we really have a team of teams kind of construct, and we have big goals and objectives that we have to leverage the unique.

aspects of each division and leaders in each of those to accomplish our overall division or all overall department objectives and that that that book really Kind of gets to that point and I wanted to share that as a common basis for my my leadership team to really start driving that that common understanding something the book talks about and in so doing I think we are we're focused on

I'm focused on completing the governor's objectives, the things that he has for our department. And we're a very internally facing department. we support the other state departments and agencies with the services that I mentioned. And so our customers are the other state agencies. And we've got a four year planning process and annual planning process that then has KPIs that go down to our divisions and our teams within the department. And aligning on all of those,

I think helps us become more effective and efficient. And efficiency, I think that's one of the things that when you're focused on those kind of goals, doing more for Tennesseans, for citizens with less, delivering the same value and the same level of customer service, but finding ways to be efficient, reducing costs, it's something that we can lead on in state government.

and improving our operations and efficiency that can translate to the national level. And I think that's something we're always focused on, efficiency and effectiveness, and driving those improvements, being innovative in the way that we do it. And when you do that and use several teams to do that, I think you're really focused on the benefit of your constituents and citizens and Tennesseans in our case. And it can serve as a model to

on the national level.

Sean Patton (14:04)
Yeah, so what I'm hearing you say is, you know, we think about

America as a whole and how we can continue to improve and create that unification. It's just like the team of teams concept or your organization. It's not necessarily that we have or should strive for group think, everyone thinking the same way or having the same belief structure or whatever. It's the power of just like the States is we have a federal system. So the States can be the laboratory. So the teams can be that. So celebrating that while keeping us all.

focused on the common objective and the common good. Am I hearing that right?

Matt Van Epps (14:41)
Yeah,

I think that's right. mean, think the other, I had this cool opportunity in 2019 pre-COVID to do this program that Syracuse University ran. It's called the Veterans Program for Politics and Civic Engagement. And at the time I was in my second Tennessee State Agency. been in veteran services. was in the Tennessee Department of Transportation building out their first centralized procurement and contracting team.

to help drive effectiveness and efficiency. thought we could drive some pretty significant ROI cost savings. And it was a really fun assignment. And I was able to do this program. I was given the time to do it. And it led up to a week long immersion at Syracuse University that was being run by the Institute for Veterans and Military Families there, IVMF, that brought together about, there was about 25 or 30 of us deliberately.

folks from all veterans or really my class was also ended up starting all veterans, but it was deliberately designed to bring in folks from both sides of the aisle. And in doing that, we wanted to focus on two things. One on kind of a crash course on governance and politics and how do you...

how do we serve in the public sector as veterans in a collaborative way? And also on the civic kind of engagement and impact, how do we connect with the people we're serving and be able to serve them at a very high level? And it was a, were the, it's still, the program is still going, now we're the first cohort. And it really leveraged our common basis as veterans.

And we had people that were on both extremes of the left and the right and folks in the middle. And we were able to come together and work through and talk about really tough things, tough things that we struggle with as a nation, things that we have to work out to get better at, things that we want to, we have to drive for the good of America. And that common basis of veterans and service, even when we disagreed, allowed us to do so in a

in a way that was humble and where we understood the value of the other side, even though we disagreed with their statements and the objectives that they potentially had. And I think there's another example there where our common basis of service, in our cases in the military, but it could be other service, serving nonprofits, but serving others.

can really be that common point where we're able to come together. We won't agree on everything, but when you have that, we can agree on things. We can figure out what to agree on and to disagree in a way that is still collaborative and still allows us to accomplish the overall objectives. And I think that is the same kind of concept that we try to in state government where

kind of back to the team of teams where, we're trying to build teams that are working collaboratively, cross-functionally to accomplish missions and objectives that we have from the governor. But I think it all comes back to teams and this kind of shared experience and trying to work together to accomplish a greater good.

Sean Patton (18:20)
You know, and you wrote, a really cool column in the Tennessee. was it for looking out for four, fourth of July this year? because our, our class motto, right? 2005, keeping freedom alive. And, it was, it drew on a sentiment that I share with you, which is how great.

Matt Van Epps (18:29)
Yeah. Yeah.

Keeping free life. Yeah.

Sean Patton (18:49)
this country is, but conversely, what makes it great is the fact that it is striving to make it better and sort of our civic duty to continue to make that better. if I, and I'm going to say some more, I'm going to say not crazy political things, but I'm going to frame things politically because you're a state government. so maybe you can't, you can be, maybe you're, know, I don't know, I don't know how far you want to get into that, but

If I had to frame it some ways, an extreme or left position might be, or you hear some people maybe on the far left about how this country isn't, like focusing all the negative maybe in the country, right? Or some people who could think that. And then you hear maybe on the far right, you might have people that, how many bumper tickets have we seen? Like, if you don't love it, leave it, right? Like, it's perfect or whatever. And...

Matt Van Epps (19:44)
Yeah, yeah.

Sean Patton (19:46)
And you see those two extremes and I just love the way you framed and I have a similar opinion of just like, you know, the first, you know, phrase there was it Africa's declaration or the country like, you know, to form a more perfect union, right? A more perfect, you took this idea of progress. So what is your, can you kind of frame your thoughts around that?

Matt Van Epps (20:02)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I I, you know, I fundamentally believe that America is the greatest experiment, the greatest, the greatest country the world has ever seen and the greatest experiment in democracy. And it is a truly great nation that has driven more prosperity in the world than any other country in history. And

That being the case, there are still things that we have to get better at, we have to improve on. It is, are that, what Reagan said, that shining city on a hill, and we have to strive for more perfection, exactly that, that more perfect union, and we should never stop in that pursuit. But I do, I fundamentally believe this is the greatest country the world has ever seen. It is driven, amazing.

at prosperity and peace and through hard things and having to do hard things and conflict. But it is truly amazing and great. And I think you and I have been fortunate to have this experience where we put it all on the line and we serve for these concepts that we truly fundamentally believe in.

and swore an oath to defend the Constitution. And it's something so powerful. And we led teams and we operated to achieve our objectives and fought for our brothers and sisters on our left and right, what it ultimately comes down to. But it's for that more perfect union and trying to drive peace and prosperity. And I do, think there's

We have to keep trying to get better and striving to get better. But it it's, it's born on the back of heroes and patriots who have done and sacrificed so much. For me, you know, that original foundation came from my dad, who I talk about in that article, but my dad was, didn't have money to go to college, was drafted into Vietnam.

was an infantryman and tunnel rat in Vietnam in 1966, 1967, was in very close and tough combat and was fortunate to make it home, even though many, many of his friends did not. And he lived his entire life with pretty severe post-traumatic stress and unfortunately died very, very young, too young.

at the age of 67 from exposure to Agent Orange and the cancer that came from that. And it was a really, it was tough. It was tough to see that in. But even though he had a diagnosis for seven years before he died, my dad was, loved the Toby Keith song and was emblematic of that where he literally flew a flag in the yard until the day he died because he loved this country so much and was

was put in a situation where he had to fight for his brothers to his left and right and did it in a valiant and in a great way. because he loved his country and despite that really hard experience, and it was a really foundational point for my brother and I. My brother's a 07 West Boy guy and has been along a similar path that we've been along.

And that was very foundational and fundamental for me. And really to truly from a young age, learn about how to love the love of country and patriotism. And it's something I think we've gotten away from and we have to get back to. think civics education and learning about America and those who have gone before and have sacrificed all of the friends that we know and the patriots before the Medal of Honor recipients who have.

done truly amazing things in love for their brothers and sisters on behalf of this country. And I think that's something that we should get back to as a fundamental foundational education in civics and government and governance. And I think that's a way that we can continue to improve as a society and as a country.

Sean Patton (24:48)
I agree. the, you know, people ask me, actually it was, I was on a, I was, it wasn't a retreat. I was at a conference in Florida and some other senior executives and I got into kind of a deep conversation with a couple of them. One of them, she grew up in Lithuania under the USSR and, and came over and, and she, it was interesting because you know, Lithuania is,

kind of half Russian influence, half European. It really is that kind of split. But she asked me about my time in the military and my thoughts on America, its role in the world and America as a whole.

I think that one additional benefit, I know for me, I don't want to speak for you, but I think for a lot of veterans, people ask me about my biggest takeaway from the time in the military, it's perspective and gratitude because I think one, I agree with you hundred percent on the civic education. And I also think that just so many people haven't seen the other side. They haven't been to parts in the world that aren't like this.

Matt Van Epps (25:47)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Sean Patton (26:04)
And so, you know, when there's a wreck and they're late to work and traffic's bad and social media is in their head, like it is the worst day ever. Right. And it's just like, and it's just like, they don't have the perspective. I know for me, I was so grateful for my time in Iraq, Afghanistan, other places where you see people living completely opposite as much as

Matt Van Epps (26:15)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Sean Patton (26:31)
you could from sort of my Midwestern American upbringing, belief structure, religion, cost, all that stuff, right? Like as opposite as it could be. And one, they were still people and also gave me the perspective of gratitude for where I came from, how much we have, how much freedom we have that we take for granted. And it also,

maybe not on the same topic we're talking about, like, it was really powerful, at least for me to realize that we're as different as we could be. We're still 99.999 % exactly the same, right? We still want the same things. were, they still smiled at the same jokes. They still, they wanted a roof over their heads. They, they loved their families. They wanted safety for their kids. They wanted to be rewarded for hard work. They wanted to feel safe and secure and have a future like,

Matt Van Epps (27:13)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Sean Patton (27:31)
all the same things, but just like almost just like stripped down with some of the BS and excess that clouds us here sometimes because we are so prosperous, I feel like in our country.

Matt Van Epps (27:45)
I totally agree and love that point about perspective and gratitude. It's those hard situations and being through those tough times, whether it's training or combat, but it's the shared experience. that really hard, hey, it's about something more than just us. It's about...

Yes, fundamentally, think people, do, they want to live in peace, they want to raise their family and they want to find happiness and they want to live in prosperity. that is a, I think that's something that most people want. you're right. mean, it's a, like how thankful I am for both the good and the tough things that have happened that

perspective that is gained from it. I I'll share another story. We were talking a little bit about this before we started, but I had our Department of General Services holiday town hall this week. And I found that the military experience and the lessons that we can draw from it are really helpful in team building and in conveying points, I think, in the public sector.

Just giving perspective and improving how we operate so we can best serve Tennesseans. And I shared a story about what it was really about, like, hey, what does Christmas mean to me? And as you know, as part of the surge in Iraq in 2008, I was an Apache guy at the start, and we would have our air weapons teams, our pair of Apaches. We'd always have.

one east of the river in Baghdad, one east of the Tigris River, one west of the river. And oftentimes we'd have other teams that were in the area, sometimes directly over Sadr City. it was December 24th of 2008. My company was on the night shift. We were located at Camp Taji. We launched and we're up on Christmas Eve. And all those pre-mission briefings were like...

hey, we think the sectarian violence might be a an amplified issue tonight. We're pretty concerned about it. So I think we had additional teams that were ready. And what we found that night is that there were really, there were minimal or no significant activities on the radio. And we were able to push back several of our teams. we ended up, my team was the only,

AWT that was up over Baghdad as the night went on. And I just remember we were there at sunrise on Christmas morning and seeing the sun come up and just this moment of peace and to your point, gratitude, where there were no radio calls, there was no violence on the ground. And we were able to just kind of share in this moment of

of Christmas peace in chaos. And it was just this surreal moment. And my fellow pilot and I remember we were talking, we were talking to our wing man that, hey, like, are you guys seeing this kind of feel this? We just recounted our blessings and we're so thankful for that. And thinking back on that now, the point that I was trying to convey to my team in the Christmas Town Hall, in the Holiday Town Hall was just.

Hey, we're always surrounded in some type of chaos. The holidays can become very hard as people have lost loved ones and have been through tough things. And it really is that Christmas spirit shining through that we should try to embrace and find that moment of peace so that we can reconnect together and share in that peacefulness and connectedness and just really try to do that. And that was a...

to your point, that was an experience that I had that would not have otherwise had not been in the military and had that deployment and several other deployments after that. it just, it really is, it's that gratitude and that perspective, I think, that the dichotomy of chaos and that peace that happened was able to drive.

Sean Patton (32:16)
Yeah, so powerful man. And you know, there were so many, as you, as you mentioned leadership lessons from, you know, your, your background and you know, how has she mentioned been state government for six and a half years, but you know, you like, like myself, like leadership in some way, shape or form education experience, training experience has been our lives for, you know,

over 20 years, right? Our whole adult life. And how has those different lessons come together to shape to shape your your leadership philosophy currently in your current role?

Matt Van Epps (32:46)
That's right. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah,

yeah, I think as I think about what I want to convey and communicate to my leadership team and how I do that, I think it goes back to that just fundamental, a couple of fundamentals. One is that lead by example and every day I really try to strive to lead by example, to work as hard as I can to show that, to ask really good questions, to challenge the team.

to be fully supportive of my executive leadership team and the rest of our teams. I think empowering, mean the second one is just empowering our teams, empowering our leaders is so I fully trust my team and I think building that trust builds additional capability and capacity for them to operate and make decisions at the lowest level which is just so important and trying to drive that culture.

I try to do it in an authentic way and share these stories about, hey, this was my experience, these are the tough times, these are the times I didn't make good decisions. And I think that goes into another point I really try to drive the organization. And we have to be an organization that just continuously improves and learns from our good or bad. So I talk a lot about after action reviews and lessons learned about formal processes and how we execute that. And then at the end of the day,

we're going to make mistakes and that's okay. We have to be willing to lean in and make the best decision we have with the information that we have at the time. And then I will always have the teams back, even if that wasn't the ultimate right decision is as long as we're learning from it. And obviously we're not, we're not going to do anything illegal and ethical and moral. We're going to, you know, we're going to, we're going to do the right thing, but it's about learning from our mistakes and trying to drive that culture of, of learning and growth and development so that we get better and better.

This department has, prior to my tenure here, but has been named the best workplace five years in a row. So like no pressure. This is like, you're sick. no where to go, yeah. Nowhere to go but down. So like no pressure, but that's, know, and it's done through a survey, our last survey. I mean, it just goes to my predecessor who was a May, Chrissy Bransky, just amazing, amazing leader and said,

Sean Patton (35:05)
Nowhere to go but down, man. Nowhere to go but

Matt Van Epps (35:22)
incredible conditions for this department and has did so much amazing work. And, you know, it's really like, how do I take it from great to greater kind of thing? And, and it's done through so that that best workplace done through a survey. It's really remarkable. We've got there's about 400 employees in general services is about a $350 million operating budget. And the last last year survey had an 89 %

completion rate, which is just like amazing. And it goes to the level of employee engagement that happens in this department, which is something I'm also trying to further is how can we stay connected to one another and stay just a part of the team and take care of one another. I never, I never, I this kind of goes back to my leadership philosophy too, is that I always will spend the time I can with my team. If I'm, you know, if

If I'm running late for a meeting but somebody stops, I always try to just stop and engage with somebody. If somebody wants to talk, I always try to be present. I think that's another thing. It's just leadership presence. Try to get out. I told the team, hey, I want to meet with all the employees in the first 30 days and I want to visit all of our state properties in the first 90 days. And I kind of laughed. There's a lot of properties that's statewide. We probably won't visit all of them, but we're getting out and visiting a lot of them. And it goes to the boots on the ground leadership is you have to be present.

and show that you care and ask questions and be invested in those teams and in their development. So that's what we're trying to do. We're trying to get out there and be, and that's the other part of being present is that I really try not to, when I'm in meetings or meeting with people, I try not to look at my watch or phones or, just be there and try to be in the moment and listen. I think that's a big piece to this is listening.

to your team and your teammates and being there for them and trying to be invested in them in that moment.

Sean Patton (37:24)
Yeah, yeah, there's so much in there in terms of a learning organization and you you talk about boots on the ground leadership or like, you know, walk around leadership. It's, funny. The amount of people I talk to, in different sectors or, you know, it's, I, I interviewed a general retired Scott Brower, who's a friend of both of ours, my group commander. And I kind of asked him.

Matt Van Epps (37:36)
Yeah, yep.

Yeah. Yeah.

Sean Patton (37:54)
what makes the special forces are, so unique, right? Like what, makes it really great? Like you meant great to greater. And he, and he mentioned that it's a learning organization. He's like, it's the ultimate learning organization. And it's so funny how, you know, to come, you know, to almost bring it back to, we mentioned, if we talk nationally, not just like a more perfect union, right? The fact that as a country, the key to what's getting better is to

Matt Van Epps (38:04)
Yeah.

Sean Patton (38:21)
be a learning organization that admits its faults just the way our teams admit our faults, we admit our faults, and then we learn from them and don't repeat. So that's the process to creating, which is gonna be so critical since you got handed a pretty good organization and you got to make it even better. It's like, well, how do you do that? Well, you make it learn from itself. And I think that might be.

Matt Van Epps (38:22)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

That's right.

Sean Patton (38:49)
the only way and you mentioned, you know, learning, admitting mistakes and learning from, so like, if you think back at your, it can be military time or other, like, what's up? You don't have to go biggest because you know, we're, we're, we're a family friendly station here, but, but, but, a leadership mistake that, that you made that you learned from.

Matt Van Epps (39:00)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, wow, yeah. I think pulling one is probably hard. I think one that comes to mind is really kind of knowing like,

When is the time where I can make the decision, I've got it at my level, and when do I need to press that for higher level decision approval? And this same kind of, I've probably not done this right a couple of times, military and otherwise, but that's what comes to mind. I think there was a time where, this is not probably a big example,

know, time where I was trying to solve problem, solve something when I was in the Department of Veterans Services and we were working with one of our state veterans cemeteries where we felt like we had a handle on what the issue was and we were problem solving. And we were, it was really about, it's kind of funny now thinking about, know, thinking back to know a little bit more now about real estate and that being what we do in general services with our.

the state of Tennessee real estate asset management team as a part of the department. But there was a building and we made a decision at one of the cemeteries, I think, to put up a small building to house some equipment that a nonprofit was using as a part of our veteran cemetery, celebrate Memorial Day and Veterans Day, very well intentioned, a good plan. And I think what I did not,

I think fully realized at the time is that there was a decision in there that should have gone up higher because of requirements when you do things with state property. And even if you're putting a small addition on, you've got to get approval for those kinds of things. And there's a process for it. And so I think we were managing it at our level. the lesson that I think I pulled is just communication up, down, left and right, kind of knowing

And this was not a huge deal, it didn't hurt anybody or things or property. But it's a good lesson in when to communicate higher, what to include in your weekly reports or your normal communication processes. And because at the time, a pretty junior leader in state government didn't understand, I think, all of the dynamics.

And that's part of what the higher level leadership teams and what others can do is like, hey, there's a process involved. And while this might've been totally fine, somebody would have done the military or elsewhere, that's totally fine. There's a little different process involved and you've got to know that. those teams and processes are in place to help problem solve that kind of thing. But what we did after that is I pulled the team together and we had a good after action review and we were.

we were transparent on the team and said, we made a mistake with this. We should have made this other decision. We should have pushed information in a little different way. so we got the team together and made sure everybody understood what happened, why it happened, what the why is. I know you've talked a lot about that in other conversations, in other venues and formats, but that started with the why.

you know, why do we do this? So we communicated that, we had a good lessons learned that was pulled, and we got better and didn't make the mistake again. And I think that's really important as a learning organization and something I should have done better as a leader in that case.

Sean Patton (43:07)
Man, communication is, if not the cause, a contributing factor in basically every organizational failure that we see, right?

you're back. Okay. Sorry. I lost your camera for a second. No, you're good. so, you know, yeah. So communication is the, if not the main factor, a contributing factor in nearly every organizational failure that I think we see. And, and if I have to pull one thing, maybe from, I have to pull one thing, a thing that I might pull from my time in the military that I see,

Matt Van Epps (43:26)
All right. Yeah, we're back.

Yeah.

Sean Patton (43:53)
on the civilian side, in the private businesses, especially I work mostly in the private sector with my clients that I see mess up continually is not putting enough time into creating a intentional communications plan. Right. You know, in the military, whether it us on the ground or especially, you know, with you in aviation and helicopters, you're coordinating, you know, Air Force drones and fixed wing and helicopters and

Matt Van Epps (43:59)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sean Patton (44:22)
people on the ground of all kinds. mean, there's so much that needs to happen. There's so much goes into when you do a mission plan that a huge part of, you know, the whole part of the operations order is command and control, right? Like communicate, how are we going to communicate? When are we going to communicate? What are we going to communicate about? You know, and it's funny, you brought up team of teams earlier, right? Like decision boxes, like what, what are you allowed to make a decision about? And I'm going to empower you to do that. What are you not allowed to, you know,

Matt Van Epps (44:42)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Sean Patton (44:50)
commander's critical information requirements. Like when,

Matt Van Epps (44:50)
Yeah. Yeah.

Sean Patton (44:52)
when does the boss need a call? When does he not need a call? And, I think that is like such an underappreciated, understated, part of effective organizational leadership that, every, probably every organization could take a second and review it and make massive improvements. Like it's never.

Matt Van Epps (44:56)
Yeah.

Sean Patton (45:20)
quite done. you know, I had, I had a client of mine recently, a CEO, who got asked to resign by his board and of a major organization. And it was around primarily the fact that there was a deal that did it, that change didn't get done. And it wasn't brought to his board of directors in the manner that

at the speed at which they thought it should and it potentially cost him a CEO his job. it's just, and in your head, and it's really just this, there was no ill will or ill intent on either side, just expectations, differing expectations that weren't clearly communicated.

Matt Van Epps (45:51)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, can, as we would do at West Point, double underline an answer on communicating on that. You know, I mean, that is such an important piece. My first, one of my, I guess it was probably my second Battalion commander when I was in the attack helicopter battalion. When he came in, this is something I share with my team now, it just has stuck with me. He had us print out what two giant signs everywhere. The first one was, everyone's a scout.

Sean Patton (46:18)
You

Matt Van Epps (46:38)
meaning, hey, you're out there collecting information and intelligence and you've got to do that so that we understand the situation we build, situational awareness and understanding. And the other side correlated with that. And it was a question, who else needs to know? And so it's basically like, all right, you've gotten the information, but you can't hold it. You've got to share it. And you've got to figure out the right timing and frequency and who needs to be a part of that team? Who needs to know the information?

And it goes to your point on decision boxes and commander's critical information requirements is that we can and should put some systems and structures in place to help us share the information, to help solve that, who else needs to know. And I think that is just such a critical piece to leadership and organizational dynamics is really that part. I'm thinking about...

It's a little pre-decisional, but I'm thinking about 2025 priorities and, you know, I'll be, I'll be, been in the job for about 90 days when, when we hit January and kind of thinking about 2025. What do I, I, I owe to my team what the priorities are for 2025 and kind of thinking about this broadly across these, these teams. And, you know, I, I, a big one that I'm thinking about is just cross-functional teams and how do you, how do you form and do that? How do you build these collaborative?

teams, both internal to our department, but then with the rest of the executive branch, with the governor's office, with our external stakeholders, with the private sector. It's really critical. And there's an art and a science to that, as you know, where, you can put the team together, but if you don't have that person who's as essentially a chief of staff, who is the person figuring out what are the action items, doing the aggressive follow-up, making sure that the deadlines are met and accomplished.

And so I'm thinking about how do we train that? And we do this a lot across our organization, but how do we get better at that? How do we put the right training and systems and processes in place to teach people how to work and lead in cross-functional teams? And I think you can drive so much effectiveness and efficiency through that. And part of that will be the communications. I've got an amazing comms team.

They have an annual plan that is synchronized with and nested within our four year annual plans. It is tied into each division's annual operating plan so that the comms plan is supporting those teams in accomplishing their objectives. And that's a great framework to have to your point where you gotta get communications right, you gotta figure out how to do that.

And doing that in a systematic way is also really important in addition to who else needs to know and driving cross-functional teams.

Sean Patton (49:38)
Yeah, Matt, you have so much going on. Also a new father. Yeah. Yeah. So cool. I'm five months old. What is, is there any part of becoming a father that changed your perspective as a leader?

Matt Van Epps (49:44)
Yeah, the number one, that's like amazing, yeah, five month old, yeah.

For sure. it goes back to your earlier point too. mean, think perspective in that, your perspective and patience might be the two on this one is that, the perspective is just amazing, think from, both from seeing my daughter and how, just how amazing and wonderful and blessed that is to have.

to have a family, seeing my wife and her strength and how amazing of a mother she is and her ability to just do so many things. She's back to work full time and to do what she is doing to raise our daughter is just so cool and amazing to see and so awesome. And then I think the other thing she'd agree with is the patience and is the...

The sleep progression is upon us now and waking up at night, kind going back to Ranger school, know, kind of our experiences in Ranger school, you know, like, you're going to get a couple hours of sleep and then you're going to be up and onto the next mission. And that's how I feel right now. But wouldn't change anything for it. Love the perspective and the patience that it's driving. And I think there's just, there's lessons there in just being a and, you know, knowing that, hey, number one.

your people and your teams, go through a lot and they've got a lot of things going on that are just not your work mission. They've got families and friends and colleagues. And I think when you invest in that, invest in the person and you're trying to understand what they're going through and listen to that and help however you can, not just professionally, but personally, I think you're able to drive some really great things in an organization. Cause at the end of the day, it's all about people.

It's all about the care of your team and maximizing their potential, not just as leaders, but as people. having that and driving that, being a dad, new dad is driving a lot of that awareness that, there's a lot of other stuff that goes on for people and their families and their challenges. And we have to recognize that and help them with it and support them whenever we can.

And so that's been amazing. And then just the, you know, I think the patience piece has been awesome too. Or, hey, we have to be patient as leaders sometimes. I think one of the things in state government that I've always been driven to is accomplishing the mission as fast as we can, as effective as we can. And sometimes government just doesn't work that way. Sometimes government is designed to have to get to compromise and it's slow, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't work.

increase the speed of effectiveness and efficiency. And so it's both understanding to be patient, but also you gotta keep your foot on the gas. You gotta drive to figure out where can you drive efficiencies and how can we do that faster? It's the OODA loop. Back in the military, it's like we have to work faster than the enemy's decision-making cycle. Well, in state government, we should work fast because our constituents, Tennessee, there's seven,

I hear the governor say this all the time, it's such a great, amazing point, there are seven million people that are relying on us to get it right. And we can't lose that perspective and we've got to keep driving that, we've got to keep working at that, because that's it. At the end of the day, it's Tennesseans, people that need us to do things well and effectively because them and their families rely on us to do it and we'll keep working at that.

Sean Patton (53:45)
It's beautiful way to end it, man. This has been awesome. And it was an honor and privilege to have you on, man. I'm cheering you on. Just amazing to see your success. And as a Tennessean, so I'm glad that we've got leaders like yourself taking the reins and being there for us as one of the 7 million.

Matt Van Epps (53:47)
So, thank you.

Sean, thank you so much. say to thank you. Thanks for having me. Not just because we're great friends, but you are an incredible leader. More people need to listen to No Limits Leadership. They need to get out and subscribe. what if you subscribe, click, all that, do all those things and have you a part of their organization? I mean, you're a tremendous team builder and a tremendous thought provoker and thought leader on leadership and.

You do it at such a high level in such a great way that's inspiring to me and I'm just I'm thankful for that because you're you're making teams better in Tennessee and across the country and that's amazing and I'm thankful for that too as a a Tennessean so Greatly appreciate my friend

Sean Patton (54:53)
Absolutely, brother. All right, hey, go Army, beat Navy.

Matt Van Epps (54:55)
Be Navy, be Navy. See ya, thanks Sean.