80: The Six Pillars of Effective Leadership w/ Jim Carlough

Many aspiring leaders misunderstand leadership as task delegation and performance oversight, missing its human core.

Leadership isn’t just what you do—it’s who you become.
 In this episode, Jim Carlough, Chief Sales Officer at mPulse and author of The Six Pillars of Effective Leadership, shares hard-earned wisdom from decades in healthcare tech and mentorship. From his formative years under Ross Perot to leading with empathy and humor, Jim breaks down how real leadership begins long before you reach the corner office.

Key Takeaways

• Integrity is foundational—it’s not just a pillar, it’s the pedestal.
• Empathy vs. compassion: Understand the distinction to lead whole people, not just employees.
• Leadership is 24/7—your influence starts in the parking lot.
• Humor isn’t comedy—it’s humanity; it disarms, unites, and re-centers teams.
• Mentorship matters—transformative leadership starts by helping others succeed.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Leadership Insights

01:33 Lessons from Ross Perot

05:27 The Evolution of Leadership

06:43 The Importance of Integrity

09:22 Leadership as a Continuous Journey

11:37 Navigating Integrity Pitfalls

14:07 Building a Culture of Integrity

16:10 Communicating Under Pressure

20:15 Empathy vs. Compassion in Leadership

23:07 Supporting Team Growth

26:42 Balancing Accountability and Empathy

28:13 The Role of Humor in Leadership

34:02 Transitioning to Mentorship and Speaking

No Limit Leadership is the go-to podcast for growth-minded executives, middle managers, and team leaders who want more than surface-level leadership advice. Hosted by executive coach and former Special Forces commander Sean Patton, this show dives deep into modern leadership, self-leadership, and the real-world strategies that build high-performing teams. Whether you're focused on leadership development, building a coaching culture, improving leadership communication, or strengthening team accountability, each episode equips you with actionable insights to unlock leadership potential across your organization. From designing onboarding systems that retain talent to asking better questions that drive clarity and impact, No Limit Leadership helps you lead yourself first so you can lead others better. If you're ready to create a culture of ownership, resilience, and results, this leadership podcast is for you.

Transcript

Sean Patton (00:14)
Welcome to the no limits leadership podcast. I am so excited to have Jim Carlough on the podcast today. Jim is the chief sales officer of mPulse and industry leading healthcare technology company. He's also a leadership speaker, author of the six pillars of effective leadership and the host of the leaders roadmap podcast. Jim spent nearly a decade working under Ross Perot at Perot systems, gaining firsthand experience from one of the most influential business leaders of our time. In this episode.

We'll dive into the key leadership lessons Jim has learned, explore his six pillars of leadership, and discuss how integrity, empathy, and humor can transform your leadership style. So if you're looking for actionable strategies to lead with impact, you're going to enjoy this episode. Welcome, Jim. I'm so excited for this.

Jim Carlough (01:00)
Sean, thank you for having me. I am really excited to be here. In fact, I was looking back at when it's almost been two months since we met.

Sean Patton (01:08)
Wow. Well, we were, talking in years about how time flies fast with your kids, but it's crazy. Even in the short term, how, how fast things go. That is crazy. Yeah. It's, it's been a while in holidays and I've, we started talking cause I've had, a baby since then. So I've got a baby boy since we talked. So it's a lot of, a lot of changes going on, segue here, speaking of transformative years, ⁓ one of the cool things we, we talked a lot about in our, our pre-call interview was

the time that you worked for Ross Perot, you worked for him for nearly a decade. what was that experience like? And were there any standout, standout leadership lessons that you got from him?

Jim Carlough (01:42)
probably too many lessons than I can count. He was an amazing man. He would return every phone call, whether he knew you or not, and he would give somebody he didn't even know the coat off of his back. He also believed in taking care of his employees, and also he thought it was his responsibility to take care of their families as well. And so one of the things that

we all had a requirement of doing. One of the great things actually was if you had an employee who was unfortunately very ill or somebody in their immediate family, spouse or child, it was our responsibility to report it to his office. And he would ensure that that person got the best care they could get in the country, even if it meant flying the entire family to another city. I had never prior or since

worked for an organization that did that. He also thought that when they lost somebody in their family, that we had a responsibility to be there to help care for them. And we would be dispatched to those family locations and we would be there through the trauma of a funeral or a death of a significant other. You don't see that in America. And a lot of people who may not have worked for Mr. Perot probably never knew that that was something that he believed very, very strongly in.

I, he also believed in hiring the best people. In fact, one of the funniest things is he would tell you, I only want to hire winners. And if you can't find me a winner, find me somebody who hates to lose. And, and it's funny because I sort of follow that practice. so some things, some things really stick to you, but, I, enjoyed having meetings with him. I enjoyed having him with customers when we would bring them into the corporate office.

One secret was if you wanted him to come in and say hello, serve barbecue, Texas barbecue, which was his favorite, and he could smell it all the way in his office and he would come following it down to the conference room and eventually make his way there. So a lot of very, very great years working with him and with other leaders in the organization who shared his passion.

Sean Patton (03:51)
such a great examples of, you know, I used to use the terms I do when I do presentations of whole person leadership, right? Leading the whole person. I guess my hope through, you the work that you're doing and the work I'm doing is that one day I won't have to say whole person leadership because it will be implied that when we say leadership,

We're talking about leading the whole human being and their families and their soul and every part of them, not just that leadership, wouldn't hear leadership and think management or tasks being done or productivity, but understand that leadership is inherently about leading the whole person and creating that bond.

Jim Carlough (04:36)
I totally agree with that statement. And in fact, that kind of leads into our discussion, because one of the things that I truly believe in is, you know, the old adage is that person was a born leader. Now there's some clinical evidence that there is a gene that many leaders do possess, but I don't believe people are born leaders. I'm a perfect example of that. I mean, I didn't pop out and...

all of a sudden have a sword and start leading an army into battle or anything of the sort. But the reality is I've learned everything about leadership through others and not just in sitting in a classroom. And I really started to evolve. And in fact, I was talking with someone the other day and they said, how are you different today than your first management job?

And I had to reflect for a second. was like, I was a horrible manager, horrible. I had no clue what I was doing. And I look at what I do today and the number of people I lead today. And I'm like, there's a huge difference and a huge river that I crossed between going from the beginning to where I am today. So it's, it's been an interesting ride, but one that's been very enjoyable.

Sean Patton (05:51)
Hey Jim, sorry about that, give me one second here. I want to edit this out. My phone started ringing.

connected to my computer. Okay, good, good. Cause I'm sure what you're saying, saying cold and I that's frustrating. guess it connected to my computer. started ringing. Again. Oh man. Okay, cool. Well, I can add that up. All right. So what did, what did you end with there? Cause I couldn't hear you as you were talking at the end about the piece.

Jim Carlough (05:58)
I didn't hear a thing.

It was your son calling. It's time for a diaper change.

Hahaha

⁓

I ended with the born leaders, people aren't born leaders, et cetera. I'm a perfect example of that. Everything I've done, I've developed and learned over time. And in comparison to where I started and where I am today, I was an amazing bridge to cross a very, very wide river. And I basically said my first, my first manager role, I didn't have a clue what I was doing compared to what I, what I do today.

Sean Patton (06:43)
So in what were some of those early lessons that you had that started to change your mindset and trajectory as a young manager to start molding you to start seeing what leadership could be.

Jim Carlough (06:55)
So the first, and directly related to the pillars, the first pillar and the most important pillar is integrity. In fact, I was speaking at a university two weeks ago and I was talking very strongly about how important that first pillar is. And a student actually derailed my entire book by telling me that, well, shouldn't that be the pedestal of the statue? And I was like, ⁓

Gosh, you are so right. It is so important that without that pedestal, the statue would fall over. But I'm not rewriting my book. It is the first and most important pillar. And let me tell you how I learned about that. At the age of 22, the year I graduated college, I was elected to be a city councilman in the town I grew up in. Shortly after the election, and this is back in the early 80s, before cell phones,

I get a call at home and it was a city administrator who asked me to come out and have a chat with them. So I went out, made an appointment, went out, sat down with them and I said to them, Don, how can I help you? And he said, well, he said, I want to congratulate you. Number one, you did a great job and you're going to be a great councilman. He said, you believe in the town, you speak with your heart and you're honest. And he said, but I want to challenge you with one item.

He said, I want you to ask yourself one question, but not every day, but every evening. When you get in bed and put your head on the pillow and before you fall asleep, I want you to ask yourself, did I do anything today for my own personal gain, which would have hurt or indirectly negatively impacted another individual?

organization or group of people. And he said, if you can say no, then you did the right that you had the right day. Do you know, I still ask myself that question every night. And there's never been a night that I didn't say no. That 10 minute conversation changed my life and made me look at things very, very differently.

many times. But it was the one piece of advice as soon as I graduated college that hit me square in the face really about what my parents had been teaching me all along. But now I'm hearing it and saying, okay, now I have to ask myself that question every night. And I still do it to this day.

Sean Patton (09:22)
You know, it, really is this idea of becoming the leader is a person you become, right? That it's, it's not about a set of skills or actions you take, although actions are obviously important, but what, what endures is the fact of what, what the type of person that you have to become day every single day. You know, I'm reminded when I

⁓ right after I went through two years of training and earned my, my green beret, right. My special, I got into special forces, earned my green beret and the cadre member, the soldier, the, Sergeant who, you know, had kind of ushered us through the training, you know, pulled me aside and so, you know, congratulations, sir. You know, the tough work starts now.

And I was like, what? The tough work. I don't know if you saw what we just did the last few years, but I think that was a tough work. He's like, no, no. He's like, the tough work is now you have to live up and earn that every single day moving forward. And that kind of reminds me of what you're talking about. That idea, that mantle of leadership, of being a leader is that title that you have to earn through your actions every single day.

Jim Carlough (10:31)
And it's a 24 seven job. You can't turn it off. And I was asked the question not long ago, when does leadership begin when you walk into your office? And I said, no, leadership begins when you got out of the car in the parking lot and you started walking towards the office and the interactions that you had with everyone along the way. And

It's amazing. I've seen leaders who are a little bit more pompous and don't interact. Heck, I've met famous people who are the same way. But the reality is you're a leader 24 seven and people are going to look up to you 24 seven. And you know, you've got to be prepared to be able to respond even if they don't work for you. And I've gone out of my way to say hello and to me and talk to people.

who don't work for me just because they were present at an event or whatever that I was at. And to me, that's leadership. It doesn't stop. You can't turn it off.

Sean Patton (11:37)
There are some common integrity pitfalls that leaders should watch out for.

Jim Carlough (11:41)
I think some pitfalls that that leaders should rush out, should watch out for are things that are, I'll call curve balls that they get thrown that maybe they hadn't been dealt with before. But I often tell anybody who works with me or, or for me or whatever, what we do is not open heart surgery. Nobody's going to die if it takes us two more minutes to figure out what to do. That's right.

or if it takes us eight more hours to figure out what's right. Now, for those open heart surgeons who are listening, I'm not negatively talking about you, but the reality is nobody's gonna die with the actions that I take during the day. And so that's just an analogy for that. But I often have to get people to understand it's time to step back and take a look at the trees through the forest to be able to understand what else do we need to be able to answer this question?

in order to deliver the right response or the right solution or the right whatever. And I think leaders should, before they just act, should just take that moment to step back, reflect and think. And if they don't know the answer, don't just try to jump in and solve something without trying to find out more information. And I think sometimes leaders, and I know in my past, I've been jumped to make a decision and sometimes,

that may not have been the right decision, but have learned from it.

Sean Patton (13:05)
Yeah, I love that example because you know, a lot of times, especially maybe in a high, if you're in a business and you're fast paced and you're focused on making a decision and how it impacts this one thing.

without considering how that might impact the longer term or might impact other stakeholders or indirectly impact people or be perceived outside of your organization. It can be a lot more complex. So think it's a great reminder to take time and consider integrity when you're making a decision, not just on the immediate transaction. And I think

I think that's important to do as individuals, but I also think it's so critical for organizations to foster a place where integrity isn't just, you know, a sticker on the wall, but an integral part of the DNA of the organization. And how do, how do organizations do that or how do leaders bring that into an organization?

Jim Carlough (14:07)
I think the leader, first thing is the leader has to lead by example and has to set the, you know, kind of the limits and the guardrails for that. And there are leaders in our own world that operate with that same level of intensity towards integrity. perfect example is the CEO of Microsoft, Satya Nadella. He joined Microsoft in 2014 and he made it very, very clear.

that integrity was going to be the bedrock of everything that we do. And when you make a statement like that, people are gonna latch onto that and they're gonna follow. Not only that, but if you lead with integrity, like I do, you build trust in others. You lose trust and you lose the commitment of people when they see you wavering away from that integrity.

The best compliment I ever received from a couple of workers was after I helped them work through a conflict because they were just too close to it. The one individual started to break down in tears and I said, I don't understand the emotion. And I really didn't. And she said to me, you're always right. You always go straight down the middle of the road and you're always right.

And I said, okay, I'm sorry that that upset you. And she said, no, she said, but it taught me that I should have just come here for the advice to begin with instead of challenging my own thoughts and somebody else's thoughts that you would guide us in the right path. And she said, I'm just upset that we spent some emotional energy to get there before I interceded. They were having a little bit of a...

Argument in the hallway. So I invited them in to have a chat and and sort of got them through the forest and the trees and and anyway, so to me that was a huge compliment because they understood and I never realized people were that it was that visible to people that the pathway that I was paving for them

Sean Patton (16:10)
You know, lot of leaders are under a lot of pressure to perform. you know, if you're, especially if you're a publicly traded company, you're living quarter to quarter, if you're P backs, right. Or if you're even to shareholders, there's a lot of pressure sometimes to hit these financial numbers and results. ⁓ so how does a leader navigate?

those types of pressures while communicating the importance in the long term of maintaining integrity in terms of their actions.

Jim Carlough (16:42)
I think it's important. I like to tell people I over communicate and I sort of deliver that. And I'll tell people, I'll tell you whatever I am legally capable of telling you, but there are things that I may be involved in from a job perspective, like an acquisition that you may not be privy to. And that's just the nature of the business world, right? You've got to keep that information close hand, but they know that if I know something's happening in the company,

that I'll be the first one to tell them. If there are some changes that are on the way of coming, I would be the first one to tell them. That also builds loyalty. And I'll tell you, I'll give you an example of just one of those. And it happens to be a parole example. I had a team of about 25 or 30 people that were, now this is back in the early 2000 era, and they were maintaining and managing a claim

insurance claim system that was old green screen technology. Now, some of your listeners may be too young to understand green screen technology, but just picture a computer without a mouse. And typically it was green screen. And so I had to deliver the message to this group that we were going to be sun setting that product and converting people to newer technology.

And I had not been faced with that before. I had done layoffs before of individual people, but not where I had to tell people that your job would be going away, but I can't tell you when. And I was also challenged because I also needed those people. So I reflected and I tried to think of what would I want to know if I was in their shoes. So when I met with them, I made them three promises. Promise number one.

They would know as soon as I knew when we were converting customer A over to the next platform, because that meant that the revenue needed to shift there and then that position would go away.

Commitment number two, if you wanted to stay with the organization and learn the new technology, I would create time and opportunity for you to learn it before that situation impacted you so you could move into another role with the new technology and continue to work here at Perot.

Commitment number three, if you did not want to stay with the organization or find even another job in the organization, I would still help you find a job even if it was external to the organization. Here's what happened. Not one person quit before they were told their job was going away. In fact, most of them stayed up and through that period of time.

and may have eventually left afterwards, but many stayed to continue their career there, which is exactly what I wanted to have happen. But here's what else happened that I never expected. For that two to three year period that that team reported to me, they had the highest employee satisfaction rating in the entire company. The entire company. I never

expected that, never strived for that, never thought of that. But my actions told them several things. That empathy that I showed them, understanding what they were going through, showed them that I had their back. I was willing to personally help them and put my reputation at stake to help them find a job or get training. And they became extremely loyal, extremely productive.

and stayed with us till the end. Sometimes you never expect certain outcomes and that one really surprised me.

Sean Patton (20:16)
what it's such a great example of empathy, which I believe that's one of your pillars as a leader. And one of the other pillars is compassion. Is that right? So what's the difference between empathy and compassion?

Jim Carlough (20:31)
So to me, there's a distinct difference. And it's a great question, Sean, because a lot of people confuse empathy with compassion. Empathy is the ability for me to put myself in your position to be able to understand what you're going through. Showing compassion is showing that I may not understand what you're going through, but I'm going to try to help you at the same time. There's a big

There's a big difference between the two. people can be compassionate, but still not understand how to show empathy. And that's not uncommon in the world or vice versa. To me, both are extremely critical, especially if you're trying to build a culture or want a committed, long-term, highly productive team of people. And I look at it sort of like, and you're a military veteran.

When you were going through basic training and training, you put all of your faith in your leader who you knew had your back if you were going into battle. That's the same thing with a leader in the business world. They need to build loyal teams committed to getting the job done and doing it successfully. And so I see a lot of similarities in that regard.

Sean Patton (21:49)
Why do they, what role do they play? Why do they both matter?

Jim Carlough (21:53)
At the end of the day, I believe it's my role to make you a better person and for you to be more successful. It's not about me. It's about how can I help you be the person you're capable of being and beyond that? How do I get you? So a few years ago, anybody who works directly for me when we do goal planning,

always has a professional development goal, something they want to personally achieve. It doesn't even have to be related to our business. A few years ago, I had an employee who wanted to become or wanted to get on the board of director, become a board of director member of any nonprofit that catered to animals. And I said, we're going to make that your professional development goal. And do know, I worked with that individual over the course of 12 months to sort out

organizations that were close to where that individual lived that she could potentially serve in that capacity. And we did it. And we did it. And to me, that's my job. My job is to help you grow and develop and be successful. And if not, then we're both going to fail. But if I'm successful in doing that, we will collectively be successful as a team.

Sean Patton (23:08)
How do leaders balance the empathizing with someone's position and their situation, showing compassion, and also holding accountable to high standards?

Jim Carlough (23:23)
So I'm a big believer in KPIs and accountability goals and exceeding those goals. And I also believe in being very focused on what we're supposed to be accomplishing. And that focus brings that structure to that. And I'll give you an example of focus that doesn't directly answer your question, but it'll help in terms of

the same individuals does show compassion and empathy, and that's Jeff Bezos with Amazon. In his very early years, he was very unprofitable, but his focus was singular. It was to become the largest retailer in the world. And in essence, he's accomplished that. It's no longer Walmart. It's not a big box store. It's Amazon.

We all buy from Amazon. And just today there were four packages that arrived at my house for my wife from Amazon. and to, I'll go as far as saying, I believe that, you know, a lot of the, we lost a lot of businesses due to COVID, especially small businesses. But I think a lot of the retailers, their brick and mortar mall stores are hurting because of Amazon. And that singular focus that he delivered.

You know, at the same time, he took care of those people and showed empathy and compassion to them to allow them to stay with him and grow with him. And, and, and that, and I think that's where focus comes in. It's okay to have a bad day. It's okay to have to take time off to take care of a sick loved one or yourself. But when you're there, you're present. And when you're there, you're focused on the goal.

And that's where when we come back to it at the end of the day, that's where the business rules or the business accomplishments matter and what we've signed up to achieve. And so I would tie focus into that so that people understand that we all have a job to do. Whether it's raising the flag in the morning or taking out the trash or we all have a job to do and we're part of that team.

and everyone should know each other on that team and everybody should have that same focus to those same set of goals.

Sean Patton (25:36)
So I'm hearing from you is you empathize with the person and show them you care about them. You take care of, you help them take care of themselves. You're there for them when they need you. You show compassion for them as a human being and caring for them, that whole person leadership we were talking about. then clearly, I think it's almost, I'm thinking like part of that empathy and that compassion is

clearly communicating expectations and holding people accountable. And as long as you do both those things, you're aligning both with accountability and performance with empathy, because I'm sure you've seen this too, that, you mentioned focus. So the opposite of that would be, know, unclear expectations, unfocused and

I guess there is kind of nothing crueler than someone wondering and not knowing what, what now you're right. It looks like, or what the standard of performance is, or if you said being let go of putting a performance plan or having some sort of negative consequence happening and not understanding and not being clear of what was coming or why that's happening.

Jim Carlough (26:42)
Very true. As simple as all this sounds, mean, my expectations for my teams are very high. I just finished not long ago doing annual reviews, and some people learned for the first time that I don't give out fives. Fives to me is such perfection that you're either walking on water or you're two levels.

below where you should be in the organization. You really are up here. And so, I view my job not done until I get you there and you're promoted into your next position. And so I think it's very, very important to set those expectations in terms of what we're going to accomplish and then exceeding them and achieving them. And it's funny, people laugh at me. I always have a goal and then I have a stretch goal. And then if I hit the stretch goal,

then we're going to create another goal, right? We're not going to take the rest of the year off. We're going to continue to push to see what we can accomplish. And so I believe very, very strongly in that and believe that, you know, there are mountains that are insurmountable, but many mountains are, you can accomplish many mountains and you can accomplish it with the right set of tools or teammates that can help you get there. The firm believer in that.

Sean Patton (27:58)
Yeah.

and multiple steps, right? Like you don't have to jump to the top of the mountain. It's one step. It's the only way to climb the mountain, right? Only way to eat the elephant turd or whatever analogy you want to use, right? That one step at a time and everyone growing together.

Jim Carlough (28:12)
but.

Very true.

Sean Patton (28:14)
You

know, one of your pillars I think is really interesting I want to get into is humor because I humor is often overlooked in leadership. So how can leaders use humor effectively without undermining their authority, if you will?

Jim Carlough (28:28)
So let's be clear about humor. I am not a comedian, nor is humor about being a comedian, right? There's a place and time for those professional comedians to have their spotlight in the stage. I use humor in the workplace to diffuse tense situations, to get people refocused, to break the ice. In various ways,

and take the two people who are not coming together or alignment on a goal or on a task that they've been assigned. A lot of times emotion gets in the way and people can't see the forest through the trees. And so adding a little humor to the situation, even if it's self-deprecating against myself is still, I think people like it better when it's self-predicating against the manager, but the reality is,

It helps people relax and it reduces the tension and the stress. And that's exactly where I use humor. I also like to have fun. There's not much I do that I don't enjoy. If I'm not having fun doing it, I don't really don't want to do it. But the reality is having humor isn't about being a comedian, but it's about being a human. It's really humanizing things.

in a fun way to get people to relax and think through things a little bit better.

Sean Patton (29:54)
What are some ways of leaders struggling with integrating humor into and lightening the situation and whether it's a high stress situation or somewhere else that they want to interject this into what they do, but they're not really sure how? Like any practical steps or thoughts there?

Jim Carlough (30:08)
You know, that's a really tough question. There are situations where I believe using humor would be the wrong thing to do. I'll give you the first thing that popped into my head, I don't know why, was when the police officer pulls you over and he asks, do I pull you over? And you said, say something about the donut shop. That's not the place to do it, right?

If someone is, if I think emotion, I think somehow you have to gauge the emotional level of what's happening. If people are about to go fist to cuffs against each other, humor's just gonna get you belted. That's the wrong, that's too late in the process, I think. If people are all in a room and you sense that not everybody's getting on the same page with what you're asking them to accomplish,

whether it be a skill set, a talent, or even a discussion, I would use it there before people start, I'm gonna say throwing chairs, not that people would ever throw chairs, but before things escalate. think, does that help?

Sean Patton (31:15)
Yeah. Now I, I think recognizing to do it. I think, you you mentioned having fun and I think fun and humor. And, know, even before you mentioned, look, this, you know, this isn't a life for deaf situation and what we're dealing with. so reducing that, because I do think like, especially nowadays people are just walked or we're, walking around.

trying to do a million things, being distracted, where being hit with the most sensationalized, you know, form of marketing and news and every travesty that's happening to 8 billion people is in our pocket. And it's just, everything is so, you know, we got to hit numbers and the kids it's so, and we forget that, you know, life is life is short and this is where and

can you can make work be fun and a place where humor is accepted and expected and we can take joy in what we're doing and just lighten it a bit. I think that's a great way to use and you kind of mentioned all those things to met to bring humor into the culture and be all of sudden work and media, you know,

God forbid meetings are actually something people look forward to, What a powerful way to build loyalty and trust in an organization.

Jim Carlough (32:35)
I agree. mean, people are wrapped way too tight today, in my opinion. And I think it's the environment and how the culture in this country has evolved a bit. And I think people have gotten way too serious. And the other aspect of it is people now have the ability to hide behind their social media persona as well. And so you see a lot of people stepping up and getting

politicized or whatever on social media, which I refuse to do, and try to be something that they're not or somebody that they're not and causing more stress and angst to others. Your friends who may be in the media may disagree with me, but I think the media plays and social media play a big part in that. And it's unfortunate, but I think it's true to some extent.

We're being hit from every angle like you said even with advertising and commercials from every angle with different positions and different ideals and what everyone wants us to believe as opposed to allowing us the opportunity to choose what we believe in

Sean Patton (33:45)
Now I agree 100 % and I was, I just looked up cause I was reminded of this quote by Alan Watts that says, man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods made for fun. And you still are to transition a bit, know,

Jim Carlough (33:57)
I love that. I love that.

Sean Patton (34:03)
You still are in a senior leadership role, a C-suite role, and, and, uh, you know, over 30 years of experience in healthcare and technology. And then, but recently I've started to shift some effort toward, you know, writing and speaking on leadership. What inspired that transition for you?

Jim Carlough (34:18)
So I started mentoring people about 25 years ago. In fact, one individual I've mentored for the last 25 years, tried to get rid of them, but I can't seem to shake them. He must like my advice a lot. But one of the things that I've learned with everyone that I've, everybody that's approached me, I've never saw anybody out and said, hey, Sean, let me be your mentor. People have come to me and I never say no.

And I don't have a total of 25 that I'm actively mentoring, but over the course of the last 25 years, there's been that many. And one of the things I noticed, which was a trend of all of them was 95 % of them really didn't understand the human side of management. And really everything we've talked about is humanizing management. and it seems so basic, but it's so true.

that a lot of these things can't be taught in a textbook and they have to be developed. And in a semester, you can't develop all of these things, right? By taking a class in college. It has to take time. And there's actions you have to do. mean, somebody doesn't wake up in the morning and say, today, I'm empathetic. And tomorrow, I'm compassionate. It doesn't work that way. And I'm sure there was a time where I lacked empathy and I lacked compassion.

but I developed it over time. And so I started to think a couple of years ago, when I get ready to retire, what do I want to do? And I said, I probably want to mentor and help others, and how could I do that? So that's when I latched onto, know, maybe I could create a list of things that people could learn that would help them be a better leader today.

And that's how I got onto the concept of the six pillars. I started making a list of all of the things that I've learned and the list was longer than six. But when I looked at the list, I said, if I write this book, it'll be this thick and you wouldn't be able to implement it. So I said, I need to find the most important ones. And to me, that's the six that I ultimately selected.

That doesn't mean I won't write about more in the future. I haven't started that. My wife says I'm that my writing career is over, but who knows for the future. Excuse me. But, ⁓ I started speaking about these principles a year ago when I started writing the book and I, started to resonate with people. And it's been interesting because this university I spoke at two weeks ago,

I offered to stay around after the lecture and answer questions or if people had anything they wanted to discuss. I had about 20 people of the 75 or 80 that were there stick around. Many of them wanted to know how to handle a difficult leader or manager that they worked for. And in some cases,

what they were describing to me was so bad, I suggested they find a different job. Now, the numbers of that was very small, like two out of the 18 to 20, but it was still concerning enough for me that most of the people wanted to ask, how do I deal with this situation? Which tells me that, I mean, these are college students who paying their way through college and they're running into the same things that I'm trying to teach leaders to do and they're not doing them.

but it also resonated with me why it's more important for me to keep getting this message out. And so it kind of fueled me a little and I started thinking, maybe I shouldn't be focused on corporate America. Maybe I need to be focused on the college students and start there because they're gonna impact the world going forward. But I think I need to focus on both. think it's important for both. I can do both at the same time.

Sean Patton (38:02)
So as you, I think as we both agree, right, that it's important as leaders, we're continually learning, we're continuing getting better ourselves. So right now, how are you continuing to challenge yourself and grow as a leader?

Jim Carlough (38:18)
So I read leadership books. Ironically, I just finished a book called Extreme Ownership written by Navy Seals. And it is an awesome book. You're probably gonna pull it out from your bookshelf. There you go.

Sean Patton (38:34)
Yeah.

Jim Carlough (38:35)
I

just finished that book. I love that book. And you know what? It talks about commitment. It talks about owning your responsibility. You know, it's like the football coach. You had one job, blocked that one person and you didn't do it. And that was the reason we got tackled. That is a great leadership book. To me, somebody could follow that and do extremely well.

But when they're faced with the situation of having to deal with compassion or empathy, they're going to be lost. that's why when I tell salespeople, read all the sales books you can find, but do not implement a single book. A sales book was successful for that sales person in that industry at that time. You can't apply

that sales process to every industry or every situation. But you can take one nugget out of that book. And so typically I will recommend books to people in my sales organization and I'll remind them only take one idea to try. It's very different than taking a leadership book or even extreme ownership, which is really focused on one thing, extreme ownership.

and implement that. And so that's kind of why I said I need pillars. And then I narrowed it down to six because six was small enough and not too big that somebody could take it and implement it over time.

Sean Patton (40:07)
Absolutely. And Jim has been awesome. People are trying to get a hold of you to find out more about your book and your speaking. What's the best place for them to go to?

Jim Carlough (40:15)
Best Place is my website, www.jimcarlo.com. It's the same as my name in the lower part of the screen, just no period or no space, jimcarlo.com. The book is also available on Amazon. It's also available at Barnes & Noble. You can also purchase it through my website as well. If someone is having trouble finding a mentor and they'd like to talk about how to find a mentor, they can reach out to me via my website and I'd be more than happy to help them.

I don't charge for free advice, so that's always good. And I'm also on LinkedIn as well. So make sure though, there is actually another Jim Carlough, no relation to me, in healthcare in the United States. So make sure you're looking at this mug and or remembering this voice when you go searching. Because while he is, I've never met him, we both have been in healthcare for probably about the same amount of time.

Sean Patton (41:13)
wow. Well, we will make sure we put all those links in the show notes and Jim, I just appreciate your time today. And maybe more importantly, I appreciate your message and the work and impact you're having in the world. So thank you for continuing to do what you do.

Jim Carlough (41:28)
Well, Sean, thank you for allowing me to talk to your audience today and to be here. I've enjoyed this. I enjoyed our very first conversation. I hope we can have future conversations. So when you think of it, let's just get back together again.

Sean Patton (41:38)
Let's do it.

Absolutely brother, I appreciate it. We'll talk again soon.

Jim Carlough (41:44)
Thank you, sir.