The Resilient Leader's Edge: Thriving Under Pressure, Ep68

How do the best leaders stay calm and effective under extreme pressure? In this episode of No Limits Leadership, I sit down with Suzanne "Xena" Lesko, a retired Navy captain, combat veteran, and global leadership expert, to break down the mindset, habits, and skills required to lead through adversity.

Suzanne shares her journey from the Naval Academy to the cockpit, leading high-stakes missions and navigating the challenges of being a female officer in a male-dominated field. She later transitioned into a public affairs leadership role, where she mastered strategic communication under pressure—a critical skill for leaders at every level.

We dive into:
 ✔ Building Resilience Like a Muscle – Why adaptability, preparation, and mindset are key to thriving in high-pressure environments.
✔ "Go Ugly Early" Communication – How leaders can establish credibility and trust by addressing issues head-on.
✔ The Power of Mission-Critical Teams – Why diversity of thought and experience make the best teams unstoppable.
✔ How to Overcome Toxic Leadership – Strategies for maintaining integrity and effectiveness in challenging environments.
✔ The Role of Humor in High-Stress Situations – How levity and mindset shifts can transform tough leadership moments.

Whether you're leading in the boardroom, on the battlefield, or in your own life, this episode is packed with battle-tested leadership wisdom you can apply immediately.

🔗 Listen now and start leading with resilience!

Keywords

leadership, resilience, Navy, communication, service academy, adaptability, public affairs, personal growth, diversity, empowerment

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Leadership and Resilience

02:09 The Impact of Service Academies on Leadership

08:05 Navigating Challenges in Naval Aviation

11:58 The Importance of Leadership in High-Pressure Environments

17:43 Effective Communication Under Pressure

21:28 Defining and Building Resilience in Leadership

26:45 Building Trust Through Transparency

29:27 The Foundations of Resilient Leadership

31:33 Embracing Discomfort for Growth

33:29 Finding Humor in Adversity

38:30 The Power of Creativity and Levity

40:56 Epistemic Humility in Leadership

47:34 Diversity as a Strength in Teams 

Transcript

Sean Patton (00:18)
Welcome back to the No Limits Leadership Podcast, where we explore the mindset, habits, and leadership principles that help us break through our limits and unlock our full potential. Today, I'm honored to be joined by Suzanne Lesko, also known as her former call sign, Xena a retired Navy captain, combat veteran, and accomplished leader who has forged a remarkable career spanning the military, business, and global advocacy. Susan's journey is a masterclass in resilience, strategic leadership, and breaking barriers.

Over a 26 year career in the Navy, rose to the rank of captain, leading in some of the most high pressure and complex environments imaginable. Since retiring, she's dedicated her life to empowering others from supporting leaders as a keynote speaker, where advisor and as a technology leader herself. In this episode, we'll explore the leadership lessons she's carried all the way from the Naval Academy to the boardroom, how she's teaching resilience and empowerment to leaders around the world and what it takes to thrive under pressure. Suzanne, welcome to show. I'm so glad we get to have this conversation.

Suzanne (01:13)
I am so excited, Sean. This has been awesome so far.

Sean Patton (01:16)
we hit it off a while ago. We're both speakers and we went through it, went through the same speaking, Academy heroic public speaking and we connected, we've supported each other. brought in other veterans and athletes to, to, to help each other. And from that moment, I was like, man, we've got to get Suzanne on the podcast and have this conversation. So I'm glad we're making it happen.

Suzanne (01:38)
I'm so grateful, Sean, this is exciting, because we always have great conversations and it always evolves real time.

Sean Patton (01:44)
I like to just hop right into it and I'm wondering, you know, I went to West Point, you went to Naval Academy. It was a rough weekend the other weekend for me personally, but that's fine. we were probably, you guys are probably do. but I'm wondering, I'm always interested to talk to different service Academy grads about their experience and how that translated and influenced them. So how would you, how would you say your experience at the Naval Academy?

shaped your leadership journey.

Suzanne (02:12)
I feel that's a great question, Sean. And I think first and foremost, it goes back to when you show up and you take your oath, right, on induction day. And you honestly, think, unless you've really talked to someone or you have a family member that's gone to one of the service academies or a close friend, you really don't know what you're getting yourself into. And so when you go through that Plebe summer,

at the Naval Academy and the respective at West Point or Air Force Academy. And then I think it's really learning to be with other people, especially from all over and you're no longer, you know, necessarily the big fish, right? As you may have been in a preparatory school or, you know, high school. So now you're in this environment where everyone is incredible, right? Everyone is super talented.

And I can remember, this is actually, think prior to Plebe Summer, we went through like a weekend, it was another orientation. And I can remember the speaker at that time shared to all of us, at that time we were high school students, seniors, and they shared, know, look to your left, look to your right, and one of you won't be here in four years. And I just said to myself, that won't be me. And I think that was really a start of my.

resiliency journey, grit and grace and like, okay, I'm to do whatever it takes because I'm here to serve my country, follow in the footsteps of my family members who had served and then have this experience. And it's such a dynamic time, especially when you and I serve because coming in, had been peacetime for a while. And then most of our career was all forward deployed or operational.

So I think it was a very dynamic time in history. And I feel the service academies are that building block and foundation to honor the mission, the values, and to exude that in leadership and now outside of the service academies and civilian life and as citizens.

Sean Patton (04:21)
Yeah, I think that of all the things that I learned at West Point and how it shaped and molded me and really maybe appreciate.

what being a leader of character really means and how being a leader isn't just that people like you or do what you say or, you know, I was always kind of like a leader, even high school, middle school. mean, all the time since I was a little kid, like I played catcher in baseball. Why? Because you're kind of like the quarterback of the field. You know, I like playing, you know, goalkeeper in soccer. I liked, I like to say I was a wrestling team captain, like as an eagle sky, like all those things. But

West Point was the first time where, you you start off on our day, right? And you get taught very quickly that the key here is you have to learn how to lead yourself first. And until you learn to do that, you aren't a leader. And it's about values and character first. And then not just do you get the result that you're trying to get from people or do people want to fight? I that to me was like that character piece.

was so instrumental for me. And the second part that you mentioned there that I still, I think I keep being reminded of is just the quality of humans that are at that surface academy, are the people that are left and right of you, the people that graduated from there, because I'm starting to see, you see how great they are there, but you're sort of like, I know, I feel like I was insulated.

I will say I'll be interested in your experience because when I got out of the military, this was probably one of the biggest gaps for me was I went from West Point and then I was in the infantry and then I was in special forces and then I got out and I, for my entire adult life, I just assumed everyone's out doing their best, pushing themselves, like trying to get better, trying to make an impact on the world and like, we'll do whatever it takes to get it done because I'd just been surrounded by that since I had

left my mom's house, you know? And all of sudden it was like a slap in the face when I was a business owner. I'm like, oh, everyone's not gonna die for the mission today? Like that's not what people are doing out here. It was like a whole, oh, that was a huge part of the transition for me.

Suzanne (06:41)
I can totally relate, Sean. And as you know, it's a dynamic world out there, very, I would say multiple facets of people that you experience. And I really feel as we learned in the service academies and then in mission and on missions and in operations, in leadership, I know we touched upon mission critical teams as well, what it takes to be a mission critical team leader. But I really feel, know, adversity doesn't really

make a man, it reveals him. And in that process of what we experienced, it's like, you know, when a diamond, how a diamond is made, right? It's a lot of refinement, it's a lot of heat, it's a lot of, you know, transformation. And I think one of the tenets and pillars of what the academies teach really is that those core values and understanding who you are and how you relate, interact with others do play nice in the sandbox, right?

because it's a growing up process. A lot of us came to those institutions from various parts of the nation and world and to go there and really be like, my gosh, I'm on my own, but my, and now I have other people to be responsible for as well and lead if we're in a leadership position and be able to kind of try it out and test it out. And then,

Ultimately, know, what we service selected then go into in the fleet or in the army and be able to then, you know, then it's you're on stage, essentially similar to heroic, right? It's like, okay, rehearsal happened, guys, training happened. Now you're on stage and you're a performer and you're performing the best mission of your life.

Sean Patton (08:25)
And you went into naval aviation, guess. Well, first of all, what was that decision like? Why did you decide to be a pilot?

Suzanne (08:28)
Yes.

So I decided on Naval Aviation Sean because a lot of my family members had served. for me personally, the window wasn't open at the time for women in combat aviation. And it happened as we were graduating from the Naval Academy and such. And I liked the diversity and the intensity of the intellect as well as the professional acumen.

learning as you go and it's a lot of feeling forward to success in that environment. It's extremely competitive. I would say it's not always a very friendly environment internally, right? And it essentially, it really brings out the best in you and what you're made of in those situations. And part of it too, just...

like special forces, you're number one or number two, right? And it's like, then you move to the next leadership position. So there's a lot of that going on. And it was, you know, it's definitely a searching of yourself as a leader, as a human, and being able to be complete, I think with your military service, because I think a lot of people go in and say they have a medical issue or something that happens that prevents them from doing their dream.

or they have an accident, you just never know because it's such a dynamic environment and you have to be grateful for every day. So it's like, okay, am I enjoying this? Am I having fun? Do I want to continue doing it? And then your time and service. So like, do I want to complete my contract? How many more years do I have in this? And then what do I want to do next? And I can remember, think it was an ensign that I was working at the Naval Academy. They call it, you're kind of stashed.

in between waiting for flight school and different schools. It's a fun time, right? You're with your friends and family and you're hanging out either in Annapolis or another place. And then you start your pipeline training. But I think those are times to discover like, is this what I want to do? And then I can remember a leader speaking to a leader when I was there saying, if you're not having fun, then it's time to move on. And those were kind of the micro decisions I made.

throughout my career because it was always very challenging, adventurous and stuff that I really enjoyed leading in diversity, in mission. And so that's what kept going. And then I'm like, okay, I can't believe it's been 15 years. Okay, now it's 20 years. my gosh, you know, it's time to think of what do I want to be when I grow up, right? So.

Sean Patton (11:17)
What were some moments, I imagine there were a lot, but can you think of a particular moment when you were in aviation that challenged you or taught you a lesson that you still remember today?

Suzanne (11:32)
Yeah, there's a lot of them, but I think most saliently and poignant was just some of the leadership we had. That was my first exposure, I would say. And it probably happened at the Naval Chemia, just we didn't have that term yet, but like toxic leadership and being able to now have a term to share that and knowing like what it takes to have a healthy organization, healthy environment.

And we saw this in some of the department heads, other leaders, and you're like, gosh, why are we tolerating this? And I think now there's more measures in place to be able to weed those types of leaders out. But I think at the end of the day, it makes you more resilient too. And so those first instances of

aviation lifestyle and squadron life. And it happened amongst the various platforms. You talk to people in all different parts of aviation and they'll share the same, know, and the tough decisions, the tough calls you had to make. And a lot of it could have been a different leader would have had a different outcome. And that's why I feel leadership is probably the most important thing next to, you know, just the basic core values of what our services represent.

Sean Patton (12:52)
And you mentioned it, but you were in the minority in aviation as a female officer and pilot.

What were some of those unique challenges in your experiences like coming up in such a male dominated field?

Suzanne (13:11)
Well, there's a lot of challenges, but I think first and foremost, and I was a Naval Flight Officer in Naval Aviation, but no worries. But in that regard, I think it's really finding people that can speak for you when you're not in the room, And those that, because you are kind of under, you're under a microscope.

And any firsts in anything, and I never, I didn't grow up like that. I always grew up as you are who you are as a person, as your character, and the sky's the limit. I was raised in a very nurturing environment where I was exposed to a lot of sports, a lot of leadership, a lot of travel, multiple activities daily, where you learn how to manage your energy and time.

And so when you go into an environment and someone's like, know, whatever it is, like, I don't know if you can do that or this, it's not, it's like, you don't have true wingmen or wing women, then that's where it can become sometimes an internal game, a mind game. And that's why I feel it's important to have people that you like, trust and respect around you and that are in the room when you're not, and they're advocating for you as well.

Sean Patton (14:29)
Yeah, building that support team around you and I think I'm hearing the importance of building trusting relationships and I'm sure that as you demonstrated competence, that, I know, I always felt like when I was in a place where for whatever reason I was either in the minority or I didn't feel like people,

were giving me sort of the, a clean shake or the respect. was like an additional challenge to, to step up and, and prove myself. And there was almost, it was almost like more rewarding when people doubt you and you step up and, execute. And I imagine that was, you know, that role was, was interesting and, coming up through that. then, you know, part of the way through your career, um, you transitioned to be a public affairs officer.

And I imagine it's a significant role shift. So I would say what drove that change and what skills did you learn that you brought into that role that made you successful?

Suzanne (15:36)
Yeah, great question. I knew like I loved it. You know, loved aviation. I loved the intense training and learning to not only master your platform or what you're flying, but the leadership, the going on deployments, you know, all these different multifaceted, multicultural environments and missions and knowing how to respond and

be of service on that mission and with your aircrew as well. And that part was, I would say it a great foundation, for public affairs, which was more multifaceted, right? Like you can work in any capacity within the Navy. And I really love that aspect of it and also as a communicator and diplomat as well and having the impact.

to share messaging, right? And impacts our way of showing up in the world as Americans, as national security issues, those types of things that we're communicating a message. And we want to show up whether that's in aviation, Navy special warfare, Navy surface warfare, working in a joint environment, which was most of my career.

and learning to operate in that. So I really enjoyed that part because it was more of a ability to work across various sectors of the Navy. And so that part was really exciting. then on my shore duty from aviation, was fortunate and I would have, if I wasn't aviator, I wouldn't have been able to do it, but I was a survival instructor. So I trained high-risk capture and combat survival.

And that was just an amazing experience and seeing real time, you know, what you do and how that impacts training for people, you know, our service men and women going forward and being able to feel that they have within them to withstand those types of environments if they were ever captured.

Sean Patton (17:43)
I'm sure as a public affairs officer, right? You had to very carefully, you know, look at narratives and look at, you mentioned communicate effectively and especially doing that under pressure. And for a lot of leaders that's, you know, it's one thing to communicate when you have plenty of time to have your, you know, your staff and all this time, the strategic message that's been polished over time. But what did you learn and what can you share with leaders about communicating effectively under pressure?

Suzanne (18:10)
think the best method to communicating under pressure, is being a great listener. So when you are a great listener in your real time, whether that's at a podium with multiple media outlets, questioning you at a press conference or it could be in another environment, maybe they just happen to talk to you and they're like, hey, we have a question about operations in XYZ. Can you tell us about that? And it's in those moments that if you're not keen on

current events and relevance and knowing what just happened, then what you share could be not aligned or on point for what is really happening, right? So it's being able to be a good listener, listening to your teams, listening to what's going on around you, being a consummate learner and understanding of the environment and the dynamic part of that. And then it's also this really fine line of

intelligence, right? So it's like certain things you can share publicly, certain things you can't, and that is an art, right? That is like you have to know how to navigate that space and that you are responding accordingly for what's being asked. And also the preparation part, there's a lot of planning that goes into press conferences and to messaging and to talking points. And it's having a good handle on the current environment.

And then what's really happening real time, could be future, having enough, I would say, tools in your toolkit or arrows in your quiver to be able to address issues as they come up real time.

Sean Patton (19:48)
Is there a certain format or technique that you would use in those public affairs roles or now as you advise or work with other leaders in terms of how to effectively communicate a message?

Suzanne (20:02)
Absolutely. Part of it, basic ABCs, know, answer the question, give your message, give your key message. But I think most importantly is, it's not what you say, Sean, it's what they hear. So, and is what they hear going to effectuate and transform behavior or is it just, you know, like a public service announcement just to pass information? But it's, again, what lands with the people and how is that transforming how they show up and what they do?

Sean Patton (20:31)
Yeah, I think that communication as a leader in all its forms is really a superpower. And I agree that whether it's with the press at the embassy as the similar situations you had to deal with, or just one-on-one with an immediate subordinate or a peer, it starts with listening. It starts with really listening and asking the right questions.

and really understanding what the other person is asking, what they want to know, like what they, you know, a lot of times people give you the answer instead of you trying to guess what you think they want to hear or should hear. And so I think more leaders need to spend more time, as you mentioned, with really listening and asking questions before they communicate and

you know, a lot of ways it's kind of like sales, right? Like if you ask the right questions, like they'll tell you the answers they want to hear. Um, and so I think that's such a critical point. And then, um, you know, I think to being able to communicate, uh, directly, and then also the ability to use stories to engage people, uh, is something I've, I've, I've found a lot. And, know, one of the stories that, that I know I've heard you bring in that I think are so powerful.

A lot of times have to do with that resilience side of things. So I guess when you're working with leaders and working on them building resiliency in general, maybe we'll take a step back. How do you define what what is resiliency in term, in inspect of leadership?

Suzanne (22:15)
Yeah, in respect to leadership and what I found through life experience and all these dynamic global environments and adventure, Sean, is the ability to bounce back in a situation and be able to like kind of recalibrate your course, right? It's almost like when you lift weights and you have your muscles from the gym, right? And you know this from British Jiu Jitsu.

and having that ninja sense, but it's essentially within your own self. It's not something that you're like, oh, I'm gonna go get a can of Diet Coke and that's gonna be my resiliency. No, it's something that is already within you that you continue to develop just like you do a muscle. And it's that bounce back ability to have these within you, your toolkit, I call them arrows in your quiver, to be able to

navigate seamlessly through life and its challenges and be real time.

Sean Patton (23:12)
Yeah. So what I'm hearing is that resiliency is something you build up over time, just like a muscle. And it's not something you just, Hey, here's the trick. Here's the quick fix, lose a hundred pounds in 60 days or whatever. It's about slow, steady work and having the right tools and a toolkit. So what are those habits that you can use to develop resiliency over time? Like where does it start?

Suzanne (23:40)
think first and foremost it starts with our basic needs of sleep, of sleep hygiene, of great nutrition, of great physical, know, physical rigor, whether that's, you you do workout, strength training, it's proven for longevity, know, muscle building, and as well as getting outside, getting into nature.

and having those just basic needs, right? It's like food, water, shelter, your first three. And when you have that, then you come from like a clear foundation, Sean, of which to operate in the world and how you show up. So having those deep, the deep rest at night, right? Whether that's shutting down your computer or blue light blockers, you know, I've always been

always intrigued by stuff. loved double seven movies as a kid and like all the cool gadgets, right? And in seeing, how will that make my life easier? We'll make it more challenging, right? Cause technology, just like everything, if you don't use it properly, can have different outcomes. So I think part of it is just getting back down to the bare basics, similar to what we learned in Sear. Like if you didn't have anything, you were ejected out of your plane. We teach you how to build, you know, shelter, how to make a fire, how to procure food.

you know, sleeping well so that you have the cognitive currency and emotional capabilities to face whatever challenges you have. And I think the same thing is in resiliency is like making that routine in your life. And then that allows you to pivot when a situation happens. Or I talk about adaptability as part of the resilient leader way and preparation and focus and community and support. And it goes back to

just like you and I connected in some of the work we've done at Heroic and being able to build that community of support of like-minded individuals that elevate each other.

Sean Patton (25:47)
And you're just reminding me, you hacked a memory of mine from Sear about go ugly early, right? you know, it was like, if you wait to, you know, get some amazing trap built, you think you're gonna, you know, bring down like a rabbit or a deer or something like that, and you're gonna cook it over this fire. like, by the time you get there, you're be so exhausted, you're not gonna be able to actually do anything with it. It's like,

You got to start eating the bugs and the slugs and, you know, get in the water. that's, that's like the only thing that's stuck with me is like, go ugly early. Uh, and, and just remembering to get, uh, get some, get the energy first and, and take care of the fundamentals so that you have the ability to move on to the more complex issues. And I think that's to your point, a great lesson that we can pull forward and you don't have to go back to serious school and eat worms and bugs to learn it. Um, so.

Suzanne (26:22)
Yep.

He's like, check,

Sean Patton (26:45)
Hopefully.

Suzanne (26:45)
check, I learned that. Check, please, I don't need to go back there. And also it goes back to, think, go ugly early. say that a lot in communications is like that golden hour, right when something happens, a plane crashes, major event happens. What facts do know right now? Don't withhold information. Give what's relevant to that situation. And that builds trust and credibility.

The sooner you have the facts go ugly early, even though it may not be pretty, It instills that confidence and trust, right? And credibility. So I think that's a good way to show up in life, right?

Sean Patton (27:27)
Yeah, and I love how you apply that to communications because I think that even in terms of feedback, like real-time feedback as leaders in terms of communication, right, like not waiting till you have, well, in 90 days, we've got your next performance evaluation and I'm gonna type up this big report and then we're gonna talk about the thing that just happened yesterday instead of being like, we just had a meeting. Okay, close the book on the meeting. All right, here, how can we do better? Or here's what I saw, right? Like you said, just like.

get dirty and give feedback and be honest and share as much information as you can with your people. And by doing that, you buy yourself that credibility, you buy yourself space and time. So then when you do say, look, I can't deal with that right now, that's not the priority, or I don't have anything, they can actually believe you because...

They know they trust that you're, or if you say, if you give them feedback, like, no, that was, that was great. They're not like, he's not just blowing me off. It's well, last time he told me immediately that here's five things I can improve. So, you know, I do like that, you know, go ugly early, how you apply that to a communication sense. And, you know, as we, as we kind of move forward, you mentioned a few other, components of resiliency. Like once that

Once you have those foundations, then you're taking care of your health, which I think is a leader, you I think it comes down to that as well, right? Like called the four pillars, four pillars of health, you know, like you, you mentioned all of them, uh, sleep, uh, activity, nutrition, hydration. Like if those aren't right, you're, you're not ready to perform at your best in any capacity. Uh, and so that is the foundation. Once you have that.

Then you mentioned, I think you mentioned adaptability, resource, there were a few other things. Can you walk us through what that process is moving forward?

Suzanne (29:27)
Yeah, so I talk a lot about not to give too much of what I have in my keynote. Yeah, the resilient leader way. one of those, the first story I touch upon is adaptability and being able to be adaptable as life comes at you. And when we think about it, and as you know, from real life experiences, the only constant is change. So if you are automatically going to a situation knowing that, and also

Sean Patton (29:31)
Yeah. Yeah.

Suzanne (29:54)
experiencing discomfort, right? Because if you're always comfortable, don't really know what's good and what's not, right? So it's that you stress, right? That you stress, not distress, distress over time will wear out your nervous system, dysregulate you, then you can't make good decisions, right? But if you have you stress and your own deliberate discomfort, I know a lot of your peers talk about this as well, then you're able to go with what life

throws at you, right? You make lemonade out of lemons and you're able to ninja your way through situations, instead of playing victim or having setbacks. Instead, your setbacks become your next comeback because you had that resiliency and that adaptability, the ability to think on your feet, to pivot when required and then, you know, tomorrow's a new day. So being able to be really impeccable with your sleep, right? Just like impeccable,

impeccableness with your word and your actions follow your words, right? Your deeds follow your words and that keeps you in integrity with whatever situation is being thrown at you in life or business.

Sean Patton (31:05)
Yeah, I, you know, it's interesting. was just thinking about, about this concept of suffering because you know, we're weird thought leader author people. And so we think about these things in our spare time. and actually just pulled up. I've took little notes on my, on my phone about, you know, thoughts on that. you know, I think that part of that, suffering in the military, that I could apply to.

to the real world or how to build another key that to build that resiliency is that it is through suffering, but it's, you know, one thing I remember all the time was when we were, whatever it was, you know, ranger school or some sort of training event where we're really sucking and whether it's a, five mile run in the rain in the morning or, you know, you're going to be walking with the ruck on your back all night. And they'd always say, you know, they'd always get us to.

yell or be excited or tell jokes. And it's like false motivation is better than no motivation. And it was just this like this switch that like, if you can, if you can, instead of having that victim mindset, but if you can lean into, know, we're going to do this anyway, like life's already going to be difficult. There's going to be changes that are going to happen and just like go in with that mindset and then not, not take it too seriously. Like, you know, not take this, this, the life that

Suzanne (32:03)
It's true.

Bye.

Sean Patton (32:28)
whatever's going on, the suffering, like, you know, you're gonna do it anyway, bad, know, difficult things are gonna happen. And by the way, that those difficult things and that suffering is going to, is how you're going to grow anyway. So I'm getting better anytime I, I, I'm going through suffering or difficult times. And so, you know, don't take it too seriously. If you can tell jokes while you're, you know, in the board meeting and

And it's this, this hard thing that's going on. If everyone is just so tense and tight and say, like, you're not going to have the best conversations. You're not going to have the best outcomes and your, as a, and the suffering is not going to lead to growth. But if you can just relax a little bit in that suffering and have that false motivation is better than no motivation. Like we're all going to, we're all going to live tomorrow, you know? And so this, not take it too seriously and let's push through to discomfort.

knowing that we're going to be stronger on the back end. think that's so important.

Suzanne (33:29)
absolutely. And it's that comedic insert, know, that levity that's required. I think it should be a prerequisite, right, going to the Naval Academy or West Point or Air Force Academy is that levity because at the end of the day, you are performing, right. As we learned in heroic, it's that improv on stage and

and being able to improv in life, right? Because it's, and especially with the military, right? Because it's so rigid. like, you will do this, this, this, and this. But if you're like, wait, let me just lean into this a little more. Let me push my left and right limits. I think that innovation, creativity, that's where that is sparked, right? That ingenuity. And knowing it's not gonna be perfect. It's not gonna be exactly right, but let's get it to where this will be, accomplish our mission.

and be an achievable outcome.

Sean Patton (34:20)
Yeah, think because you know, some of the military and they're not wrong. I think a lot of people get value out of somebody like, you know, David Goggins or whatever, right? Like Jaco posts in his, he's up at 430 working up every day. And it's like, okay, cool. Like, and I've heard so many people be like, I love him. He motivates me. Cool. Awesome. I'm glad they do. But I think that for most people, if they take it,

If they hop in and say, well, I'm going to wake up at 4 a.m. and I'm doing kettlebells for an hour and I'm doing my cold. It's like, you're not jumping right into that. You're not doing that for your whole life. And you're going to and you're going to end up in this all or nothing mentality of like, well, if I'm not that then and it's nothing instead of let's not take this too seriously. And like, how can we make this work fun? Right. Like in terms of resiliency, right? Like if I can make to your point, make this work.

fun and, find the levity in it. And, and, know, I don't have to be this hardcore, but like, how can I, you know, I, I own gym, I own, I own jujitsu gyms, but I owned a gym before. And it was like, what's the best workout plan, the one you'll you're going to do. Right. The one you actually show up and do is the best one. And if that's playing tennis, awesome. If that's hikes in the woods, cool. If it's lifting weights, cool. And, and, and so it's like,

Suzanne (35:32)
Absolutely.

Sean Patton (35:45)
whatever, but, you're still getting it done and you're still miles ahead of the person who's, you know, hitting snooze six times and stumbling into work at nine 30 late. you're, you're still ahead of all of that. So, I do think that there's, know, how can we turn life and these challenges and, and becoming our best self and leading our teams? Like, we take a little bit of the seriousness from that and how can we make this fun and play?

because life's too short to just be like, I'm just gonna suffer for 80 years and then go in the ground. Like who wants to do that?

Suzanne (36:22)
Exactly. And it comes down to a point, I you and I have talked about different global journeys and there's suffering and there's healing, right? Once you heal yourself spiritually, emotionally, physically, then that's the point of which you improve your quality of life drastically, right, Sean? But when you live in that suffering, the drama, the trauma, and when you think about it, when people just bring drama to your life, right? It's that

you know, the middle three words, RAM, it takes up RAM in your head. So it's like, I don't need any more drama in my life or people that, you know, it just, it doesn't elevate you, right? It extracts energy versus life giving force. And I think it's important to pay attention to your environment because especially in the military, sometimes in corporations, like you may not have that leverage to leave the situation due to circumstances and

That's where levity and being creative really comes in handy, right? And in some things that we're talking about now, we have even, know, two days for now, a week for now, we may not have thought of like, how did that happen? There's no playbook for it. So that's where the creativity, the innovation, the ingenuity comes in and the levity ultimately, because it just helps you move through life more seamlessly.

Sean Patton (37:44)
How do you do that in your own life?

Suzanne (37:45)
levity or moving through seamlessly?

Sean Patton (37:49)
Yeah, maintaining, yeah, guess, you

know, maintaining that, that creativity and that levity, as you, know, you're, you're doing, you know, big things, right? Like you're doing big things in, a lot of different aspects of your life. you're advising, know, veterans, you've had nonprofits before you, you're advising, technology leaders and, all of that. So you, someone could look at that and be like, this is serious stuff.

Right, like Suzanne just be walking around, nose to the grindstone all day, every day, but like every time I see you, you know, you're not, you're smiling. It seems like you're having fun doing it. It's like, how do you do that in your own life? What are some practical ways that you implement that?

Suzanne (38:30)
That's a great question, Sean. I think part of it is I just, really do what I love. Like I focus on what I love. you know, whether it's making an amazing meal, being around family, amazing friends. I have an amazing golden retriever that sparks so much joy, not only in my life, but the lives of others. I mean, it's just, it's a comedy show, right? So it's sort of like, you know, and it's also satirical in a way. And even my peers at the Naval Academy and flight school, my squadron,

they were hilarious, like things would happen and it's like this kind of dry humor. And my family also is from Slovakia and they're just notorious comedians. So I kind of grew up with it and just like funny things that happened and you're like, did they just say this and what did you interpret it as? And it's not like, it's not demeaning or, you making someone wrong. It's just like bringing the art of creativity to a situation. And I think that again, relaxes the,

the environment relaxes yourself first and foremost and allows you to go into a parasympathetic state versus sympathetic flight or fight. And then from there you make really good decisions, right? I mean, who wants to make decisions with not enough sleep, you know, all these other things. That's one of the extreme trainings you and I both have been through that forced you to say, well, how, you know, I can show up all shiny and pretty with a good night's sleep and

as a civilian, right? And like your team or your support. But what if I didn't have all that? How would I show up? I still show up in a way that I could lead people through a challenging situation or scenario? So I think that's the key is finding those little micro bits of humor throughout your day and not taking yourself so seriously.

I think some of the best leaders, and you could protest to this too, is you see two general officers talking and they're joking or they're really involved in what you're doing. They're not these like seagull leaders, right? They're not way up high and not sharing what's best or doing a hot wash or something like that or after action report, but they're involved in the daily iterations of what makes an organization great and amazing. And there are no absolutes, right? Because as we learned,

absolutes don't really take you anywhere, right? You gotta see both sides.

Sean Patton (40:56)
Now, what are some way I love that because I think that, um, so one of my foundational principles is called, uh, epistemic humility. And, um, so epistemic humility is, explained it in there's sort of like two parts of it. So part one is just acknowledging that we can be closer to truth or we can grow. can learn, uh,

Suzanne (41:06)
Mm.

Sean Patton (41:24)
through experiences and learning new things, right? Like I think everyone can agree that otherwise what are we doing here, right? Like we'd all be newborns, right? Like we all know. So our understanding of the world is maybe closer to truth than some, know, than maybe when we were 12. But it's then your realization that all of that tells us that we're always potentially dealing with an incomplete data set, right? Like every belief, opinion,

that we have is completely framed by a very limited set of data. And there's a bunch of stuff we don't know, can't know whatever. And so therefore, you know, kind of like we mentioned, you know, heroic, like we learned the improv. Yes. And yet therefore it's always like, here's my current belief or opinion, but what do you got? Because I'm willing to change that belief and opinion, based on new data and not being an absolutist. And man, if I mean,

I don't if you've ever seen it. I've never seen it like, you know, on the internet or social media and someone's like, no, that's a really good meme. You know what? I'm going to change. You know, I am going to vote the other way. mean, if you're like, there's so many people just so locked into, this is way it is and not being open and, just not even just being open and new opinions, but being like, this is what I believe right now, but I'm probably wrong. You know, like Lee going into with that sort of.

Suzanne (42:29)
Right.

Sean Patton (42:47)
open-mindedness. And I think that, I think that to be a great leader, you know, almost coming full circle back to where you started with like being a great listener. It's one thing to just listen, but if you're not listening with the right perspective of like, I'm every, every belief and opinion I have about this business, about life, about, you know, I'll even go as far as say religion politics is based on an educated guess. So if you got new information, I'm here for it.

And I think that's so critical to be successful in leadership and to build relationships.

Suzanne (43:21)
absolutely, because you take that new data, right? And you apply it. take, it's almost like you extract it, similar to you do data and insights and technology and preserving that and saying, what was the best practice from yesterday? what was, what did I really like? What were the gems of yesterday or today? And then extracting that.

what didn't work and then pulling the best of it, bringing it, iterating it for the next version. And that's how updates are made. That's like, why do we update our computer? Well, it's the same with our bodies and our minds, right? It's like an upgrade. So the more conscious conversations you have with people and you hear different views, then you're like, oh, that's interesting. And being curious, like, oh, I would have never thought of that. Or, you know, why do we travel, Sean? Like, I mean, that's probably...

I mean, it's definitely a core, almost a core value of mine too. you know, travel brings these different perspectives and you see a different way of being and showing up in the world and how people perceive you and how you perceive the world. And then realizing at the end of the day, we're all in this together. You we're all trying to do the same thing. And so I think that's what's really important from travel and meeting diverse cultures.

especially if you was a green beret, being boots on the ground in, you know, in the environment, right? And I did some of that with USAID and other stuff I did on the ground in the Middle East and so forth. But, you know, being able to really understand where people are coming from and what they see and breaking bread together, right? And really understanding like in human terms, I see you, you see me, let's work together.

Sean Patton (45:07)
100%. And, you know, I said on this podcast before, I'll, I'll say it again, that my biggest takeaway or people asking my biggest takeaway from my time in military, I would say perspective and gratitude because going and, you know, living in, in, know, eating, uh, you know, eating dinner on the, on the dirt floor with my hands with the Afghan warlord, why his kids run around and play and, uh,

And, and, and interesting how their family interacts and getting to know them and, and, living in and amongst the people and in areas of the world that are, if you look from the outside in, you know, as different from the middle of America as could possibly be, but you know, it's funny, you have almost coming back to you, you mentioned, you know, Maslow's hierarchy of needs and those foundational elements. And that's what I think that's probably the framework that I've seen proven over and over again is that.

That still describes every human being. Like everyone wants food, water, shelter, safety, security. They want to raise, they want to be able to spend time and, and, raise their children and they want to be rewarded for their work. And, know, they want to have community and they want to, like all those things are exactly the same. we're 99 % exactly the same, just with like a different filter on it. And,

And I think that as, you know, as human beings and as leaders, as a country, we will go so much further if we start with our commonalities and then figure out how the ways that we're different can be assets to the group, how diversity can be an asset. different opinions can be an asset, but not, you know, our, our media or social media, whoever, mean, these

the algorithms, all the things that we really, you they focus on sensationalizing and amplifying our differences. And as leaders in a ever changing world with a global workforce or different opinions, like it's so important. think that we, if you can understand those fundamental sameness and perspective of what it is to be a human being.

You're in a much stronger footing than if you start with how are we all different and how can we fix that?

Suzanne (47:34)
Absolutely, and it goes along with what we talked about earlier on mission critical teams and you know the best teams that solve those golden hour issues or solutions or wherever it is and in an ER room in the hospital or on the battlefield or in the boardroom is the ones that have the diversity of team right if we were all the same we would all think the same of college group think and then we wouldn't have any real solution to the issue

The most successful teams are the ones that are the mission critical or mission critical focus that have that diversity within them to think these different thoughts, to have a different approach and be like, my gosh, I didn't think of that. Let's bring this, you know, this angle in. And so I think it builds better organizations and ultimately resilient organizations as well.

Sean Patton (48:26)
100%. And Susan, this is awesome. When people want to hear more from you and about resilient leadership, what's the best way for them to find you?

Suzanne (48:35)
Well, I love contributing to LinkedIn content and celebrating each other's successes on there as a platform. So LinkedIn is a great place to follow me. Also on my link tree, which is under Suzanne Lesko, I put my latest assets on there, media assets, and kind of what I'm thinking, what's relevant in the world and how I see it and how we can continue to elevate each other and serve

not only our country, but our world right now.

Sean Patton (49:07)
Well, awesome, I know I enjoy your content and your thoughts and ideas and I always learn from them. So thank you so much for the work you're doing and thanks for coming on today. This has been super fun.

Suzanne (49:15)
Thank you, Sean, it's been a pleasure.