Tech Moves Faster Than Your Team—Here’s How to Catch Up, w/ Kevin Torf: Ep65

Are you stuck in the endless grind of managing every little detail, fixing your team’s mistakes, and feeling like the weight of the entire business is on your shoulders? In this episode, we sit down with Kevin Torf, a veteran leader with over 40 years of experience, to unpack a game-changing leadership strategy: the Push-Pull Theory. You’ll learn how to stop micromanaging, empower your team to take ownership, and free up your time to focus on what matters most—growing your business. If you’re ready to stop working harder and start leading smarter, this episode is for you.

Takeaways

-The speed of technology is changing everything.
-Empowering teams is essential for effective leadership.
-Generational differences affect technology adoption.
-Reflection is crucial for personal and team growth.
-Transparency in communication prevents surprises.
-Fostering innovation requires a balance of freedom and structure.
-Defining a clear vision keeps teams aligned.
-Coaching is more effective than traditional management.
-Building team cohesion enhances project success.
-Identifying and training future leaders is vital for organizational growth.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Kevin Torf and His Journey
02:39 The Evolution of Technology and Its Impact
05:59 Generational Changes in Technology Adoption
08:21 Managing Complex Projects in a Changing Landscape
10:31 Empowering Teams Through Leadership
14:38 The Importance of Team Collaboration
18:18 The Hybrid Agile Methodology Explained
21:49 Defining Goals and Keeping Teams Aligned
24:03 Fostering Innovation While Managing Risks
26:54 Building Cohesion in Teams
29:24 Identifying and Training Future Leaders
32:11 The Importance of Reflection and Growth
33:40 Adapting Frameworks to Technological Change
37:43 Common Mistakes in Project Management
40:10 Conclusion and Key Takeaways

Kevin Torf LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevintorf/
T2Group: https://t2group.com/
Kevin's Book Getting The Job Done: https://a.co/d/3bv52kw

Transcript

Sean Patton (00:18)
Welcome to the No Limits Leadership podcast. am your host, Sean Patton, and we have the privilege of speaking with Kevin Torff today. He's a true leader and innovator in the world of IT strategy and project management. Kevin is the co-founder of the T2 Group. We have spent decades transforming complex IT challenges into streamlined solutions for businesses of all sizes. He's not only a seasoned information systems executive with, as we were talking about before we started this,

over 40 years of experience, proud of that experience, but also an author and thought leader. He has a great book called Getting the Job Done. And he's really an expert in blending this cutting-edge technology, project management, and leadership. So we're have a great conversation today. Kevin, thanks for being here.

Kevin Torf (01:03)
Hello Sean, thank you for inviting me. Thank you for letting me be part of your program and reaching out to your listeners. I'm excited about going into different aspects of my book and different areas where hopefully I can bring value.

Sean Patton (01:22)
Absolutely. And you have an interesting history. So when we talk about your early career in terms of just getting people caught up because you're a senior executive now, how did you get into IT and technology originally in the early part of your career?

Kevin Torf (01:37)
Very fortunate, I had a father who was very technically inclined and he had a workshop at home, I'm sure like many other fathers and he actually did a lot of hobbies around electronics. He didn't actually ever work in the field, not that I can remember. But he used to go in there on the weekends and he taught me the basics and we built little radios together and...

even back then valve amplifiers and that goes back to the 40 years comment that you made earlier and you know just really showed me the ropes and that's how got into electronics and then when the first personal computers became available I actually was very very fortunate to have my uncle purchase one for me and I was able to start programming and

learning the fundamentals and one thing just led to the other. I just got very much involved in technology and loved the field.

Sean Patton (02:39)
In your time in technology, what has been the biggest technological jump or innovation that has just changed the game that you thought just really changed the way people interact with technology?

Kevin Torf (02:54)
Yeah, I don't think in the 45 minutes we have enough time because I've got 40 years worth of experiences and actually taking into account my teenage years, let's say 50. But no, you've seen some of it, the world has seen some of it. When we went from cassette tapes, I used to program on my computer and store data on a four-track cassette tape. And then I went to floppy disks and then it went to...

the larger ones and then you went to removable storage and now it's all in the cloud. I mean those were small incremental steps and you you can say the same for music what's happened you know with the LP going to the CD now going to the services that you can download. So technology is evolved and it's evolved in so many ways around us. I think what the most fascinating thing to me

is the speed in which it defaults right now. You know, back in the beginning, yeah, the iterations might have been, you know, over a decade. Now they really do seem to be over a year. You know, look how the iPhone has transformed the way we do things. And there were phones similar to the iPhone prior. But an iPhone took at least five years to start doing anything. And now, know, have version 16, I think. That's 16 years. That's not a long time.

And look at what we do today, it's transformed our entire life. You you can't walk down the street and not see someone hold a phone in their hands. So smartphones, not necessarily the iPhone, have just changed the way we're doing things. And now we've got AI. And that's all also only happened in the last two, three years. I mean, it's been around and people have been developing it for decades, the commercial uses of it...

have now really started changing. So I'd say in summary, it's not one particular technology or type of technology, it's the speed in which things are changing right now. A lot quicker than I think the human is capable of comprehending it.

Sean Patton (05:04)
I think you're exactly right that the speed of technology, think the speed of communication is so fast. I think that's one of the reasons that we see maybe hyper, we're hyper aware of divisions and we see so much conflict between different ideas is just because ideas and technology and change is happening so fast that it's creating such a divide. And we see that play out.

in a few different ways, right. in, terms of, the business world, because we see companies trying to cope with the actual technology changing. And then we see the people side of that, the, you know, adoption of new technology and maybe generationally having, you know, maybe the differences because change is happening so fast. The, the generational differences I think are magnified a bit. Would you, would you say that that's true or?

In your experience?

Kevin Torf (06:00)
no,

definitely the digital age has just changed everything about what we do and how we behave and how we interact, know, even just pre-COVID to post-COVID, you know, how we talk to people, how we engage with people. It's so different now. We've now so digitally engaged in everything and the speed of that is very different. don't have to...

drive to your office to have a meeting for us to have this and conduct this podcast. You know, we set it up for over 10, 15 minutes. We had a preliminary conversation, you know, for 20, 30 minutes. And now we're having a podcast. You know, that just, that wasn't even possible 10 years ago and 20 years ago. So no, it's really transformed our life. I think what's in store for us is when I look at

You know, the technology I played with as a child, I was fortunate enough to be 10 years ahead of a lot of my peers, because of my father being in electronics. But I look at my grandchildren right now, four, five years old, and one of nine, five and nine, and one of three. They got a grasp. They can grab a tablet and navigate through it in minutes and find what they want.

We, me and you, I even knew Sean that you're younger than me. Didn't even have that exposure.

Sean Patton (07:29)
No, not, no, not at all. And, you know, I'm in this weird, I think they call me technically a gen Y it's like a micro generation between I'm like, I'm like the oldest millennial or I'm the youngest, you know, what is it? Jen, was it Jen X, right? So I mean, I'm like, yeah, yeah. So I'm either, yeah. So I'm either the youngest Jen X you've ever met or the oldest millennial, depending. And so, you know, I remember getting

Kevin Torf (07:47)
Gen X, Gen X, yeah, that's.

Sean Patton (07:56)
I remember being, I think it was in junior high when we, had AOL and the internet and, you know, and then, know, someone would, you'd be on the same line as the phone, right? So then somebody would call and your parents would be yelling at you to get off the computer. And, you know, it was, was definitely a different world than we're living in now. It's definitely impacting the, the workplace. how is, you know, with your company, you've, you've been doing project management, the IT space for so long.

How is that technological change, how has it really impacted the way that you manage complex projects?

Kevin Torf (08:28)
We have learned over time and I think that would be said for anything. Projects require a little bit of everything. It doesn't matter what it is in life. With the technical projects we undertook, there's obviously some planning required. There's some budget that needs to be determined and managed so we can keep...

costs contained, there's resources that have to be allocated. And that has never changed really back from 100 years ago to today. I think what's changed is how you manage those people. You know, and that's even something that I've changed a lot, that's changed, I've changed quite a bit. I'm still struggle with it, but you know, in the beginning, I thought management was telling people what to do, go do this for me and go do it this way. And I want it done now. And

you know what, that's the way I grew up and it's the way my father taught me and it's the way I probably, you know, worked with people that I engaged with back then and I learned over time there are different ways of doing things. are better ways and there's sometimes more effective ways and you know, you've got to adapt and you

being in the business we're in, it's a people business. Everything we do is professional services and it's engaging personalities. And people have changed over time. So I've got to adapt to their style and communicate in a way that they can understand what's expected of them. then today it's a little bit more about empowering people. It's not about telling people anymore what to do.

It's empowering them and allowing them to bring what they can to the table. And that's been a hard lesson for me over the years. I still remind myself every now and again, this is a different generation, step back.

Sean Patton (10:31)
And how do you do that? When you, we say, Hey, we need to empower them. Like, what does that look like on the ground for the leaders that are managing projects and have teams and they want to, they want to empower their team. They want to be, you know, a leader, not just a top down, you know, draconian manager, but like tackling, what does that look like when you interact with your team to make sure you're empowering them?

Kevin Torf (10:54)
So one of the best ways I can illustrate that, I do talk about this in the book under empowerment, is I call it the push-pull theory. So as a project manager, it's very applicable as a boss, as a friend. You you can tell people what to do in a push methodology. I will establish how long something should take to get done. I'll establish what...

should be done and I will tell this to a person and I'm putting that burden on them but really at the end of the day they didn't engage in determining whether they were actually capable or able to do that. In the pull theory you change that and you ask a person you know this is my this is what I want to get done what do you think what do you think the best way of doing this might be and you based on your knowledge how long do you think it will take you?

So pulling that information and then getting that person to say, you know, this I think I can get done in a week. You never force that timeline onto them. You got them to give you their feedback. Now they become a little bit more responsible for providing that information. And that's a significant change. It might not sound like a lot, but it's really a play of the roles.

and allowing people to feel that they contributing, they were part of the decision making. And they also, if they're gonna be responsible for something, they had the opportunity to tell you what they were capable of, and how quickly they could or couldn't do something.

Sean Patton (12:35)
That's absolutely true. Creating that buy-in. know, when I was, when I was in the military, especially when, in, in, special forces, right? Because every, every member of the team is, is, is more, probably more like the environment you're talking about. Like everyone's capable, everyone's knowledgeable, everyone has certain specialties they bring to the table, a different perspective. And so our planning, was always collaborative.

to get the buy-in. And don't you think you, a lot of times you get the best ideas from the people closest to the problem too.

Kevin Torf (13:06)
very much. The more, know, there's the... what we just discussed about the empowerment of an individual. But then there's the empowerment of a team. And giving the team the responsibility to be able to execute. And allowing the team to, between each other, work out who's going to be responsible for doing what. And then the team actually holding each person accountable.

and helping those people that can't achieve what they need to. And it's really just that cross-functional part of it. You know, I love the Montessori education because, you know, there's many aspects of it that are unique. But one that really comes to mind, the conversation we have here, is that they like to put three age groups together in a classroom.

And the reason they do this is so the youngest kids can learn from the older kids. The older kids can learn from teaching the younger kids. And the middle generation learns from both. And creating that collaborative workshop together in a team is very similar. It might not be ages, it might be skill sets. It might be someone with more experience versus less experience. But allowing them to work together

can bring about change that you won't achieve in any other form. A team really is the ultimate of what one can do when it works well together.

Sean Patton (14:38)
I love that you brought that example for two reasons. One, my wife and I are expecting our first baby this January and we are fans. went to a, when she was younger, she went to a Montessori school. So we're looking into that. So you just reaffirmed our childcare choices. So I appreciate that, Kevin. And then, you know, it's funny that you bring up those age groups because this is something in, in, in, it's funny how these things come together because this is actually a concept I talk about.

in, in jujitsu, the martial art that I own a company, we Brazilian jujitsu. And I talked about how jujitsu provides, a lot of the things I think as human beings that were designed to want to desire to need. And that's things like, you know, having a tribe, someone's a group that speaks the same language that's working toward a common goal. and, part of that is you have elders, right? People more advanced than you that have gone through and are passing down knowledge.

When you're, when you're junior, you're learning from them and creating that bond and your, then you grow up and you pass that on. And I think that's, this is like, this is really how we're supposed to live, like how we lived as human beings for so long. And you know, the modern world has split us up in some ways and put us in our little boxes and almost taken away this tribal aspect. And I love the fact that you're talking about is how as leaders and in business,

we can harness, you know, how we're genetically designed to live, to create powerful, engaging teams that connect with these different levels. That's what I'm hearing from you. that's, think that's a, man, I think it's a really powerful lesson that can be applied in the teams that we lead inside our companies in a lot of ways.

Kevin Torf (16:20)
No, very much so. You know, in my book, I talk a lot about the comparison to sports. So one of the sports I love is English football, soccer, as we refer to in America. And I follow what we consider the Premier League, which is, you know, NFL or whatever the majors are in the United States, the elite teams.

And the way that you get to that league is you got to get promoted. So you got to go through the lower divisions and you get promoted. The top three teams every year go up and the top bottom three teams go down. People don't understand that concept until you really understand English football. So, cut a long story short, one of the teams was a team called Leicester City. This goes back seven years ago or some time like that.

and they were in these lower divisions and they never had any truly, you know, massive celebrity or athlete like some of these other teams that had, I think, going back now to recall here, but the top teams pay about 400 million pounds, 500 million pounds between all their players, very much like the NBA or the NFL.

Leicester was paying about 30 to 40 million pounds for their team. So none of these teams, each individual player, the whole team was earning less than the individual player in the Premier League. To cut a long story short, they worked together very well and very effectively and they got promoted through the different tiers and they got to the Premier League and they were never considered to even be a contender and they won the Premier League.

And when you actually watch the game and you watch how they did it, it all came about through team play.

Sean Patton (18:18)
It really, it really is. think that's why, I'm glad we're having this conversation and why I'm so passionate about the power of leadership. You know, I, I often make the claim leadership is the most powerful force in the planet. I think Einstein gets credit with saying it's compounding. but I think what leadership does is compound the power of human beings by, bringing people together. And I love that example of how powerful it is. You know, one.

one methodology that, you have developed with, with your company in terms of project management to integrate this, this team concept with the technology concept is what you call the hybrid agile methodology. Can you kind of elaborate on the process and the inspiration behind, T2 groups, hybrid agile methodology?

Kevin Torf (19:04)
Yes, project management, as we said, goes back decades, hundreds of years, and there's a lot of formality behind project management. There's the PMI Institute, which has written certifications and training material for people to become, know, practiced in the whole delivery of how to manage projects. But that's very formal and it's very structured.

You know, it has budgets, has charters, it has objectives, it has resource allocations, and it's very formal. And for most part, a lot of that planning was all done prior to even starting a project. So, you know, if you had a two, three-year engagement, it maybe took you half a year to a year to plan it all out in detail. Well, the world adapted and changed, and what we realized is...

We spoke about this earlier, about the speed that things happened. You know, back in today's time, if you took that approach, you by the time you execute it on the project, a year later, your business needs might have changed, your resources might have changed, your goals might have... But so therefore, you're dealing with an old plan. So, Anshar brings about the whole concept of doing things iteratively. You know, plan a little bit, do it.

reflect on it to make sure you're still going in the right direction, plan a little more, do it, and then reflect and be accepting of changes and model this to your needs. Now the problem is both methodologies have their shortcomings, their pros and their cons. You know, one is you do all this detailed planning like we just discussed. The other is you're so agile.

you lose sight of what your real intentions were or goals are. So you got to bring both together in one mind and you need a little bit of both. And that's really how we developed the hybrid methodology. You still need a plan, maybe not as much, it's a balance. You need a budget because you have to be constrained by some financial rules. But you need the freedom to work as a team.

to allow your team to participate like we talked about, empowering them, which means they're going to bring their style of working together. That might be in conflict with your overall goals. So you've got to find a way to make everybody feel united and feel like they're of the solution. And that's a good hybrid, a good leader, a good coach of a sports team. It's about just bringing all those talents together.

and finding the best way to get them done.

Sean Patton (21:49)
I'm interested in this whole concept, but I'm especially interested in how do you clearly define, you know, the end goal, right? Like how do we create the North star? How do we, how do we keep everybody pointed the right direction, to accomplish what our end state is as we make these, these iterations, as we move forward, like how do we keep everybody going in the same way? How do we communicate that?

Kevin Torf (22:17)
So Agile has a manifesto that was developed by some early programmers that were trying to focus along the lines that you've just articulated. How do you keep everybody going in the same direction? And they came up with language and terminology and acronyms. They sound good, but you've still got to practice it. So instead of a plan, they call it a vision. I've got a vision.

And you know, that vision is maybe the product I'm going to develop. I got to execute on this project. I got to build a vehicle. I got to build a space shuttle. You know, whatever it is, it's a vision. Then, you know, you break that vision up into what Agile refers to as epics. You know, what are these big pieces that are going to be these milestones that need to be achieved in order to get there. Then you break that down further into stories, which will...

allow you to complete that epic. And you've got to start. So, you know, you can't keep looking at the vision. You've got to look at what's in front of you and how to get through each one of those stories daily, weekly, and then every week or every two weeks, whatever iteration or cadence you want, is go back and reflect and say, you know, are we doing what we set out to do?

Is this still in line with our vision? And by the way, is this what we still need to do? And is our vision still the vision we thought it was? Or do we need to make some adjustments to it? But you only can keep on track if you keep that reflection and you consistently remind yourself of what you wanted and do you still want it.

Sean Patton (24:03)
Hello, and you know, as we talk about managing, these projects and, using your projects framework along with this, hybrid agile framework, as you push through, we do these iterations. How do we foster innovation through the process while, you know, managing, the risks and, that come with.

innovating and moving fast, right? We hear that like move fast and break things, but you don't always want to do that, right?

Kevin Torf (24:32)
Yeah, and this is where, you know, very much in line with all your podcasts where you talk about leadership, that the person that's managing the team, they really not, the word manage is wrong, project manage is even old fashioned. It's about leadership, it's about coaching. So it's about, you know, bringing the team together and allowing them to

come up with ideas, but those ideas at the end of the day, they got to be in line with that vision. But you got to allow people to innovate in that respect so that you can tie the two together and tweak it and make adjustments accordingly. it's building, it's allowing people to really be creative. It's like with Steve Jobs and Apple, you know, he had some great visions, but what people don't talk about is the great teams he created.

and those leaders of those teams. And those teams, you know, they said, let's go out and look at and try and find a way to build the lightest phone. That was the vision, the lightest phone. Or go build a phone that the gloss was unbreakable. Or that a feature or function of it was where they thought that they get what the industry needed. And then the team got together and came up with different ideas. you know, maybe some of them didn't quite work out.

But because they were iterating on such small cycles, when they did fail, it wasn't that critical. You know, maybe they wasted a month's worth of work. Now let's tweak and let's go down the road that we feel we can. And that's why it's so important to have that reflection, so you don't allow that creativity to get out of control.

Sean Patton (26:16)
Yeah, the short sprints and a leader looking over and managing that so that we're not getting too far down the road before we check to make sure it fits, I think is an important and critical role that we play as leaders inside of this. And you talked about empowering teams and bringing along and coordinating them, but like, say you're a leader and you've got a team that maybe lacks a little

cohesion or confidence working together. What are some strategies to help bring that team back together if it's struggling within teamwork?

Kevin Torf (26:54)
There might be a few different things you need to practice. One is coaching, teaching the team how to do certain things and reminding them of some of the tools they have available and how they can use those tools. But even that has limitations. You ideally want to get the team helping itself self-manage itself.

as we spoke about, that those different experience levels or age groups as we used as an example, help each other really keep things together. And then, because of the empowerment of the team by having them make the obligations of what they can do and what they're going to do within that time frame, you've now indirectly got them to make a commitment.

And you know, what you need to then do as a leader, is remind them of what that commitment was. And also allow them to tell you, did they succeed in doing that or not. And it's quite interesting when you do that on a regular frequent basis, and you build a routine in doing it. You know, every two weeks or whenever that sprint comes to an end, and each time the team says, well...

I made all of these 10 commitments, but we only did five of them. And then the next week, two weeks come and, you know, we did, we had seven commitments, but we only did three of them. You know, at some point you've got to say, you're not over committing. Let's actually learn how to deliver on your commitments. So let's not have seven commitments. Let's only have three. And let's actually make sure we get it done. And then, you know, they might be able to achieve that.

Then you can say, right guys, maybe let's try and make four commitments this time. And you got to teach, you got to allow the team to mature and evolve. And eventually become self-sufficient. And this is one another way of driving them to do what's needed. When obviously they might not be or they're not getting the results that you desire.

Sean Patton (29:01)
What are you, as you, as you, work with teams through your projects framework, and you implement this, how do you identify, select and train rising leaders to prepare them to step into those leadership roles from maybe as an, maybe they were individual contribute contributor or just like a small team leader or something. Like how do you know who needs to move up and how do you train them?

Kevin Torf (29:24)
Yeah, that's a good question. I think, you know, I've always learned myself by practice. you know, you want to start and know what it's like to be a team player and learn what's required. Then, know, in my mind, once you really become able to contribute, if you have the want and the wherewithal to grow and do other things,

You know, the goal is to then work with those, team and allow and start taking over some more responsibilities and, you know, allow the team to even become, you know, your critique of how you do things by accepting that reflection and learning from, know, reflection doesn't always have to be about the product you build in or the project you deliver in. It can be how we do it, know, sure, and after this, after this...

podcast, you know, let's reflect, let's talk about what you could have done better, what I could have done better. Maybe I spoke too much, maybe I should have been more to the point, maybe your questions could have been different. But we learn from this and we only, we learn through that reflection. And I believe the best leaders today are the ones that really know how to embrace that and to use it effectively to better what they are in.

they are and what they do. I don't know if it's something you can train. You know, I've seen lots of programs and books on, you know, do this, practice this. And obviously having that structure is important and knowing the theoretical principles and tips. Even my book, you know, it's got lots of tips about things to do. But I do think it takes a unique person to be able to

identify their weaknesses, make a fine tune in them and go back and do things in a different way and keep making those changes and mature and grow because of it.

Sean Patton (31:26)
I, you know, I pulled out a few things from there that are so important. You know, that I heard you say that you think are important to leaders. know, one of them I heard was you said. Leaders have to learn to be a team player first, right? We got to learn how to follow and be a member of the team before we can lead the team. heard, I think that's super powerful. we have to learn how to, reflect and learn and lead people to reflection and.

I heard that.

Developing your leadership requires a commitment to growth, a want to get better in what you're doing. I'm hearing those as powerful drivers for what you look for as someone who is maybe ready to step up into a leadership role.

Kevin Torf (32:11)
No, find so now listening to it afterwards, you know, it's what I've practiced. It's what I do myself. You know, I don't profess to know more than what I'm capable of doing. I've read many things, I've listened to other people, but you know, I find it difficult to even do things if I don't know myself how to do them.

So, you know, I like to learn from that component. So, this might be something unique to me, but I really think the three pillars, and you know, then there's, I'm sure, a few more that you brought up, are really drivers, because you need to be, you you want, you need to be able to want to do better. I don't know if everybody's built that way, in fairness. It's, you know, people look at me and they think I'm crazy in doing some of the things I do.

Why do you work so hard? it's not just because I want to work, it's a passion. I want to be the best. I want to be good at what I do.

Sean Patton (33:13)
Absolutely, yeah, that commitment is so important. I wonder with your projects framework in the book, like how...

Is there enough flexibility in the framework where you think it's going to, you know, stand the test of time? Or do you think with as fast as we kind of went back to our original conversation and we started this, we're talking about how fast technology is changing is, is the technological change, you know, the, the rate of change, do think it's impacted your framework or does your framework adapt with it?

Kevin Torf (33:40)
Do you think it's going to live the test of time? I really do. Because, you know, they might be able to explain them in different ways and educate. But, you know, even when I listen to your podcasts about being prepared, you know, preparedness, I know that's planning, you know, having an idea of what you're going to do before you start. There's an element of it. The argument here is how much do you need to plan? And what's enough to get started and not have a plan?

So that's a balance and I think everybody's going to deal with that differently. Everyone will approach it differently. But there has to be some planning. We spoke about, you know, I go through the different letters of the acronym, that reflection we've spoken about. You talked about jujitsu and just the organizational framework. I did Shotokan when I was younger and there's a lot of disciplines in there and that's, I call that the organization.

that these rules of engagement, you know, they might change. People might do things in a little different way, but there's got to be that structure. know, juggling, we always juggle. Unfortunately, we always try to do more things than we're of. The, you know, the rule here is that, you know, unless you do have focus, you won't do as well as you, if you did five things versus one thing or two things. So learning how to balance that juggling.

and controlling it, but more important, actually not juggling, trying to focus on what you need to, so you can get it done. We spoke about empowerment and you know, building that team and allowing them to be part of the decision making. Communications, you got to learn how to talk to people, you got to learn, you know, how to say, people have got to set expectations of each other, of what that vision is, what the mission is.

And if that's not articulated, then people won't have that direction and that leadership needed. I think one big item we haven't spoken about, in my mind, from a leader is transparency. It's about, there should be no surprises. You know, you should, it's about doing what you're doing. You know, there's some great books written on the subject about, you know, people that unfortunately might be asked to leave a company or...

be fired. the rationale is none of them should be surprised when that happens. Because if a leader should be giving these people feedback all along as to what they could be doing better, what they aren't doing. And when that time comes, if they're not fulfilling those obligations, the consequences are what they are. So you need to be transparent and the team needs to be transparent with each other.

If some of the team goes off and does one thing and another part of the team does something else, that's not a team. So transparency, you know, that's a subject all on its own. And then setting standards, a little bit like organization, but building out that checklist. You know, like to remind myself of pilots has set a checklist that every time they fly, they go over that same list. It's exactly the same over and over and over again.

You need that as well to sometimes check off all you're doing the things you could be, should be and how does that work? you know the projects that I was able to use as that acronym to, you know, define and bring up some things that are very, you know, common and people do they might just have different words for it and they might put them in different structures. I think they'll prevail. I think they will still be talking about these things in...

Many, many years, maybe in another 10 we'll have another podcast.

Sean Patton (37:24)
Yeah, we'll do a check. I think so too. I think it's a, it's a great framework when you see, maybe more junior leaders try to implement it. You know, is there a, one of the components that you see people mess up more than the others? Like where, do people get wrong the most? What do need to look out for?

Kevin Torf (37:43)
I think most people have a tendency to overcomplicate things. think, they try and do too much. And they think that they need to in order to be successful. And ironically, if they just had a little bit more focus and did one thing at a time and did it well, very quickly they can achieve their objectives and they will do it much better than trying to take on too much. I do it myself all the time. We have to remind myself.

Slow down, slow down to go faster, you know. Take it easy, let's focus. And I'd say that's probably one of the biggest common mistakes I see. Again, there's many, but if I had to choose one.

Sean Patton (38:24)
I struggle with that too. So I'm going to, I'm over here guilty as charged raising my hand that I feel like it's a, it's a constant, things are going well. You start saying yes to more stuff. can do more stuff. And then, my God, what am I doing? What I need to get rid of. Let's, you know, narrow it down. And, you know, we had a Faye, a phrase in, the military, especially when it came to things like marksmanship, which is, you know, slow is smooth, smooth is fast. And we used to say that over and over again.

Kevin Torf (38:29)
Yeah.

Sean Patton (38:53)
and when people would get, try to get ahead of themselves, stay in the moment. If you, if you go smooth, if you go slow, you'll actually get there, you know, faster. But I think especially for, you know, we're both guilty of it. And I think especially for junior leaders, it get real excited and, you know, try to bite off and they're going to conquer the world in the next six months. Right. It's

Kevin Torf (39:14)
And then I think, you one thing I've learned myself is I'm my biggest own critic. You know, the next lesson I can teach them. Stop doing for others. You know, start doing for what you believe is the right thing. Manage yourself and just focus in like we've said, slower to go faster. Be, take pride in what you do. You know, do one thing at a time and the risk will look after itself. You know, you'll the people around you.

to start respecting that because you would have, you know, no pun intended, get the job done. You know, that's my, you know, that's what my life is. You know, someone said, what I want written on my tombstone. Real simple, he got the job done. You know, I didn't talk about it. I think Disney was, had a famous saying, you know, you know, I forget the exact words, but it's about stop talking about these things and just do them. Get the job done.

Sean Patton (40:11)
Absolutely. And, you know, everyone out there, we'll put the link in the description to get Kevin's book, getting the job done. So you can go out and get it. this is a powerful framework from someone with again, decades of experience. And I loved your insights that go so far beyond just the tactical application of a framework, but the human side, the leader side, the mindset side, it was.

really, really interesting and really inspiring. And I think it's going to be powerful for a lot of our listeners. So I appreciate your time today, Kevin.

Kevin Torf (40:44)
Now, Sean, again, thank you for including me and, you know, I think we have both have a passion for the subject and it's evident in listening to your podcasts, you know, these items, you know, what drive you, they drive me as well. So hopefully, this will be a long-term relationship and we can share even more thoughts and ideas.

Sean Patton (41:07)
Absolutely, absolutely. Well, I said, anyone who needs to get a hold of Kevin, we're going to put all of his links for his book and just getting to hold them. What's the, if they want to just get a hold of you directly, Kevin, is there, what's the best way for them to do that? If have questions.

Kevin Torf (41:17)
Yeah,

they can connect to me on LinkedIn. They can send me emails. I've got all my emails. It's kevin.torf at t2group.com. But they can get it from the website as well. probably LinkedIn has become probably the old man's social media. Not like the Facebooks in the world.

Sean Patton (41:37)
I

No, no, I know. I mean, I'll tell you what, I'm 41 about to 42 and I pretty much am just on LinkedIn now because there's a lot of nonsense, a lot of those other places. So I'm with you on the LinkedIn too, brother. Well, I think so much again, Kevin, I appreciate it until next time. you know, take care of yourself.

Kevin Torf (41:56)
I appreciate it. Thanks, Sean.